Hatred

The following is a comment I made in response to someone posting on my previous entry. I think the person I responded to is really just remarking on the level of anger she sees in this discussion, but it brought up a sore point. Of *course* this argument is acrimonious. This isn’t something that is going to be addressed by being friendly with people that want to use you. That’s called being a chump. The whole notion of going along to get along is used against good people by scoundrels to commit their crimes, and I don’t think being nice for its own sake is an ideal to aspire toward.

Most of us who are starting to speak up know that we aren’t going to be seen as nice women for doing so. Women who speak up never are. That is one of the ways we are silenced. The person who I respond to with this post is not trying to take the transgender position I don’t think, but I want to take the opportunity to address the attempts to silence women in this argument by accusations of “hatred”.

What hatred? I confess to hatred of other people’s actions. I despise being politically assaulted by others and then told to shut up and that my opposition to their attacks is hatred. I also do not like people demanding rights over women, and claiming that it is hatred if I object to it being done in my name. I will not accept that my declaration of independence is hatred, or an imposition on anyone else. If they feel that way, they are imposing on other people perforce and just don’t like being caught in the act.

Yes this is all very personal to me, that’s why I say “I” and “they” so much. I am quite tired of being held up as a human shield every time some TG plan backfires. There is a definite “they” when they do this to people born like me. I don’t accept their actions as valid. I speak for me, they do not.

On the topic of “intersex”, it’s important to define that term closely. Maybe the difference in viewpoint is that I already feel certain that my difference is physical in the brain, and also in the rest of the body. That was one of the first things that I understood before I began my treatment. But intersex in nature is a different thing than intersex as it developing as a social movement.

Intersex as it is coming to be known as a movement is about standing up to the the attacks of the medical and government establishment. This is an industrial complex that has gained unspeakable control over individual lives as business grows tendrils throughout the machinery of power in Western civilization. Some people see government as inherently beneficial. I see government that must be controlled to be useful, and non-murderous.

Some people feel some level of affirmation of the reality of your condition from recognition by your government. But that is a personal experience and should not be “inflicted” on other people as standard business practice in this type of matter. What is good for one is not good for all, and if we respect individual rights we do not impose diagnosis against people’s will, especially under penalty of law. I do not accept a patriarchal view of government.

I am not willing to be diagnosed with a falsehood in order to gain sympathy from a government system or individuals. And that is how I view “Gender Identity Disorder”; it is a lie. And for perspective, those who think intersex is some kind of panacea for social vilification need to speak to some of the people affected by the medical and government abuses that crop up in their lives. As it stands, men who pretend to be women in the UK, for instance, have more ability to affect their legal status than women who have been labeled as men by false scientific gods there. Intersex itself is being created as a category by medical authorities as a crass powermongering move to make themselves relevant where they are not wanted. There is a lot more to intersex than biology. It is political. And because of that alone I would not tread on their lives, because I have not been targeted in the same way they have. I respect their identity, whatever and whomever that may include.

Accusations of hatred are sorely misplaced. I stand up for myself, and I would hope others can see that for what it is. If people can’t, then they have lost their way. I won’t be chastised by accusations of hatred for simply objecting to the nonsense that is going on right now.

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44 Responses to Hatred

  1. Susan says:

    Aria…the insults are part of the game, and there’s no telling from which direction it will come. They take the form of hate (and every form of the word), phobia (add the prefix du jour), and bigotry (insert your favorite position)…and my two favorites, self loathing and internalized (insert your favorite form of hatred, phobia, or bigotry). It’s like a broken record. It doesn’t matter what one’s position is, if it’s contrary to the overall GLBT mindset, the insults will follow. No need to parse one’s words, it makes no difference how delicate one states their position, it makes no difference if one prefaces what they are about to say with enough apologies to satisfy the Nuremburg judges. If one takes the position we have, they will be branded with the label of a hater. Just the way it is.

  2. […] unlike the above, a woman of who sees things in the right perspective wrote a fine essay entitled Hatred.  I urge you to check out the piece on her excellent site.  The essay revolves around the tenor […]

  3. Jessica says:

    I am the woman being responded to in this post.

    For what its worth, I’m neither attempting to silence Aria nor am I trying to support the notion of the ‘transgender umbrella.’ Both of which Aria has acknowledged.

    I have written on the latter at some length both in comments to others’ blogs and in commentaries posted to my own blog.

    I suppose what Aria is reacting to is what others in my own life have called ANGER in my own advocacy. More commonly, I have been accused of BAD ATTITUDE, particularly in my job.

    This aggregate of issues and feelings is why, for example, I am NOT participating AT ALL in Ottawa Pride this year–happening right now. I am, at this time, working on a writing project–which I should be working on instead of posting this comment. LOL

    Certainly, this is the way women, but also ALL oppressed persons are silenced. In my own situation I’m an older woman who doesn’t shut up. A formula for much unpleasantness.

    Nevertheless, curiously, as the old management has moved on, it seems I’m being accepted for the woman I am, big mouth and all–and positive things are, finally, after a several year’s ordeal, coming.

    As I move into academe–something I’ve worked on for 2 years, if not my whole life–I’ve found the very thing that has gotten me into so much trouble in my job, in my advocacy, even my life, has, for the most part, been the very thing that is getting me into the good.

  4. cassandraspeaks says:

    Actually Jessica, although I wouldn’t presume to speak for Aria, I think the response was to a relatively cordial exchange between me and Zoe. At least, I hope Zoe saw it that way, I certainly did. I found your comments thoughtfull as it happens. I try to speak my mind firmly and politely (I hope)Glad to hear things are working out for you though, good news is always nice.

  5. Jessica says:

    I, also, try to speak my mind firmly and politely, if directly–even as I have commented recently.

    Speaking directly is often felt to be a challenge when spoken by those in an inferior power position–well, maybe it is–even by those whom one is NOT challenging.

    I suppose I have felt this “challenge” from time to time, myself.

  6. SA-ET says:

    Also not presuming to speak for Aria, Jessica, I also felt this essay was a comment on the perception of hatred when writing of ones contempt and frustration for some other position, not a specific rebuttal.

  7. ariablue says:

    I wasn’t directing this at Jessica, I had hoped that was clear. Sorry if there was any confusion, I know this stuff gets very personal.

    I wanted to confront the infuriating tactic that many of the TG use; not only is it a variation on the big lie, but they way they engage it is anti-woman. That kind of abuse needs to be addressed. It is the tactic of silencing by using words like “Nazi”. They might as well be those stereotypical blokes in the papers dismissing us as “shrill” like they did to women when they’d speak up in the past.

    It just bothers me to see people I agree with on many things like Jessica being influenced by that propaganda. Certainly this is an unpleasantry that has been visited on us, but if there is hate it is coming from the other direction.

  8. anoldfriend says:

    I think you did a wonderful job of expressing what is and has been an issue with many of us regarding the GLBT-Q communities.

    It might be time for me to take a vacation from all of this for a while. I am so very tired of abusers and abuse.

    I have enjoyed reading your blogg, and look foward to more.

    🙂

  9. sophiaofthescythes says:

    Hi Ariablue 🙂

    I think this article is well balanced and well put.

    🙂

  10. Sara says:

    Disparaging words such as “hatred”, “self-loathing”, “Nazi”, etc. are indicative of an individual who has already lost the argument. The infrastructure upon which they rest their “case” has been surgically dismantled and they have nothing left to stand on. They lash out. Like children who shout “I HATE you!” after a parent has made the proper decision and denied the child what they want.

    Conflating “hatred” with pointed, passionate disagreement is also a hallmark of group speak. It’s an attempt to position the group against an argument for which there is little or no counter argument. I mean, everyone can rally beneath the banner of “hatred”, can’t they?

  11. Sara raises a very good point. Often times when dealing with “identity politics” it is not uncommon for accusations of hate to used to silence opposition. There are some, for example, who will used this in any discussion of racial issues. Or, if someone raises an issue about something involving gays or lesbians, cries of hatred are sometimes used to silence dissent. It does not actually have to have any real relevance to the discussion. It is just trotted out to win the argument. I have seen it many times in dealing with transgender activists. Object to being included under the umbrella, and the most common response is to accuse one of hatred.

  12. A N says:

    I wish there was a website for women who transitioned. One for women who paid the price and made the sacrifices necessary to have female lives but where those women can get together in support of one another, discussing their lives, sharing…

  13. A N says:

    Is there any such site? I have thought about blogging but I don’t want to create a blog just so that people who disagree with me can attack me and add to my angst. Maybe I just need to focus on living a female life and leave all this web garbage behind? Seems like it is only a way to avoid moving forward and to continue suffering, being invalidated, being accused…

    Though sometimes I feel so alone. Maybe I just need to move forward though, in real life.

  14. Jessica says:

    I’ve often thought that the “community(ies)” one finds/makes online, while often helpful, can get in the way of the lives we were meant to live “in real life.”

    Yes, it IS scary.

    But, for myself, it is the BALANCE between what I do–advocacy, school, friends, fun–not always easy, not always quite what I want, but it is the way my life was meant to be.

    And its getting better, bit by bit.

    It took me 57 years to get here and I’m not there yet but I’m really looking forward to the path from here on.

    We make our lives so we don’t feel alone–at least not all the time.

    We’ve gotten this far; it has been a tough slog, we’ve shown our strength, we’ve gotten stronger; we’ll make it.

    We have to think this way.

    And the world will begin to answer in the affirmative.

  15. cassandraspeaks says:

    A N it’s a wonderful idea:BUT …….. when that has been tried in the past gradually bit by bit one by one TG’s move in and the TS’s move out. A great many of the support forums started out that way and ……….. well what you see around is what you are left with.

  16. A N says:

    I do my best to live my life avoiding anyone who ever knew me from before and more especially during transition. I avoid those people like they are the plague because I need to be allowed the freedom to be female. I was hoping that I could find people such as myself to relate to online. People at a relatively similar place in life who have the desire to be known simply as the women they have always been, without the “trans” thing. That is damn difficult to find on the web forums I am familiar with.

    I was hoping to be able to network with women who live as women, not women who live as transsexual women or trans women or whatever… I have heard arguments in the past where “transsexual” women argued against “transgender” women, saying they were the real women and how everyone needs to be educated on that and how everyone needs it explained to them how some transsexual women are really just transgender women. Personally I think that argument is one-sided and ignorant. I think women live as women and other people live as other people. I think web arguments are pointless and cause suffering. I just want to be able to relate to someone like myself while living a female life. Sorry if that sounded offensive to anyone, it wasn’t meant to be offensive to anyone.

  17. Jessica says:

    It just worked out there was no one from before I transitioned–except the workplace where I was fired when I transitioned.

    In the decade before I transitioned I lost all interest in just about everything and everyone–there was no one left, except my students.

    When I came into the “community” of gay and lesbian, primarily, people, the only thing I made sure of–one of the very few things I ever did intend about my transition–was that I would always be me, not who I was before.

    I never really noticed, on a personal level, disacceptance as a woman. It was only, and remains, the disacceptance of the political positions I continue to advocate for.

    In most of my life I’m reasonably out, simply because I could no longer keep hiding all my past–there was 40 years of it! as unsatisfying as it was–and censoring my own sense of humour, which often turns on what I was, what I am, and the people around me. I have a good sense of humour.

    The orthodoxy used to be, for us, that we must give up all our lives–divorce, never see our children again, go to some new city and begin from the absolute beginning.

    I refuse to do that–not that I had much of a life in that sense to leave.

    I’m persuaded by the argument that this rejection is not for OUR benefit, but for THEIRS.

    Our lives, OUR LIVES, are not something to be ashamed of, to cower in secret as if we’ve done some terrible crime.

    We haven’t.

    Not that all can do what I’ve done, or am doing, but I simply cannot hide. No, I don’t wear a big red T on my forehead; I live my life as a woman.

    Does this make my life something of a contradiction?

    Absolutely!

    But its MY contradiction.

    Maybe, over time, the more there are those like me, the greater acceptance for those who cannot do what I do.

  18. A N says:

    Jessica, giving up the past is for your benefit. Unfortunately some people have too much to give up. If people really wanted to live female lives then they would gladly give up everything in order to have that life. But people wait too long and they get married and have kids and make a place for themselves as male in the world and it is too difficult to let go because the facade that they used to hide behind actually became them.

  19. Jessica says:

    A N, I know this is one story.

    Now, I also know some might like to reduce EVERYTHING, including those things that are not sex, but gender, to sex–almost the reverse of those who wish to reduce EVERYTHING, including things that are not gender, but sex, to gender.

    Female persons live lives as women–much of what they are, certainly as they are perceived, as feminine. This is just the, to my mind, correct division between physiology–SEX–and the usual ways of expressing it, or how many things are perceived–GENDER.

    Now, what you say about having children and making a life as male–really a MAN–is certainly difficult to let go; they probably worked hard, against their intrinsic inclinations, to try to make such a life work.

    They should have our empathy.

    Now, if you’re talking about things, say, like a knowledge of literature, or an ability to bring clarity in meetings, to speak publicly, to be empathic, things that can be the expression of either men or women, then I cannot agree with you.

    If one is, say, 18 and hasn’t developed various intellectual or empathic then, I suppose, you can easily let go what is, really, a minuscule part of one’s life.

    If one is, say, 50, maybe it mightn’t be such a good thing to give up one’s love of literature, an ability to lead public meetings, speak eloquently, have empathy–and whatever things these lead/have lead to.

    So, A N, I’m not sure what benefit there is in giving up these qualities, and others–if one can–that come from the past. Maybe, you have nothing worth keeping–I have many things worth keeping.

    And necessary to being a whole woman–not just female.

  20. A N says:

    I don’t understand at all what you are saying Jessica.

    I know how to tie my shoes, I learned that from before transition. I also learned how to drive a car before transition. I remember those things, I didn’t unlearn how to tie my shoes or drive a car. I was always female, I was simply missing my female body and female life. My being able to continue to tie my shoes does not make me male, nor does having read a book before I transitioned, even if reading was a “love”. What I did give up was the wrong crap that was forced on me like having a male body and a male life. But part of me was always female and honestly I am really kind of sick of having to explain stuff like this to people. That is why I simply want to be able to network, correspond or compare notes with others like myself who have transitioned instead of having to constantly justify my life.

  21. A N says:

    Or explain myself.

  22. ariablue says:

    I know what you mean A N. There’s always been the problem of TG takeover in forums, etc. If there was to be a forum like you describe, it would take a hard-nosed moderator who handles things in a no-nonsense fashion. And it could be exhausting, depending on how deeply the subject matter affects the person emotionally. I find, though, that once you kick the TG’s out of the conversation it becomes much easier to talk amongst ourselves, so it might not be too bad once it got going.

  23. Leigh says:

    “I find though that once you kick the TG’s out of the conversation it becomes much easier to talk amongst ourselves”

    …. and that would be useful how? Wouldn’t that be the same thing the TG’s want to do on their blogs, talk amongst themselves … and to theirselves?

  24. For those who are looking for a place where they can converse with other women who share a common history, but who simply wish to live their lives as the women we really are might consider this mailing list:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarryBenjaminSyndrome/

    To join, you have to be post-op, and you have to be approved by one of the moderators. But, I believe this is what some here are looking for. I can assure you, TG types are not welcome.

  25. “Wouldn’t that be the same thing the TG’s want to do on their blogs, talk amongst themselves … and to theirselves?”

    A blog is not the place to have such a conversation. I am sure there are plenty of TG mailing listd thst would quickly boot any one who does not share their views. But, if you have a blog, and you boot people simply for disagreeing, that simply shows how insecure you really are. Places like Pam’s House Blend, Bilerico, Transgriot, and Women Born Transsexual are all transgender oriented blogs that will remove anyone who actually presents a coherent argument against their silliness. On my blog, this is not the case. But, on the mailing list I belong to, it is strictly a no-TG place. Do you see the difference?

  26. ariablue says:

    Sorry to be flip, Leigh. I guess it irritates me that it might look like I would be proposing some new brand name or alternative GLBT-like organization. I think we’ve had enough of that sort of thing in recent times.

    There is a difference between people in transition and people after, obviously. After transition most of us don’t deal with this stuff often if at all. But these days more than a few of us are starting to get angry enough to talk about this amongst ourselves, on the internet, and as time goes on probably in other venues as well. I wasn’t really thinking of that aspect.

    Transition has its own special needs and it really bothered me to watch the final collapse of all support for men and women born like us. I came in right at the very end it seems, still thinking that the transgender element was an eccentric but harmless concept. It was rather confusing to try to sort out all the propaganda from the truth, but at least the medical information and contacts with doctors was still there. I’m not so sure that is true anymore.

    I think at this point everyone is steered towards silly therapy and surgery is downplayed, telling people that it’s something to think about in the far, far, future, if ever. Doctors that are willing to help without involving all the transgender nonsense are few and far between these days, as many seem to be running as fast as they can from the hordes of transvestites who now call themselves transsexuals. There is so much non-information when you are looking for practical solutions that there may as well be none in a lot of cases. The noise has become the signal.

    You are right on when you say most of us are tough, self-sufficient people. We’ll find the way. What I had in mind was a place for people to get real information from people who know what they are talking about, not gender theorists or hucksters selling therapy. The nitty gritty. I’m not a great fan of support groups or sites, but we do need the tools to get the job done.

    And besides that, it would be great to keep new transitioners away from the dead carcass of the “support” network for a variety of reason. Two of the biggest being 1) Too many sexual predators around vulnerable people and 2) no more talking in the open to the crossdressers about our experiences. They just commit them to memory and use them to try to prove they are real transsexuals. Don’t want to feed that monster.

  27. Leigh says:

    Points taken JJ and Aria. I stand corrected. It’s been so long since I really needed anything like that, I forget there are still some of us that might.

    These days I just walk tall and carry a big stick, but there have been times in my life when I lost perspective and needed someone in the know to launch a few squash balls at.

    Sorting out the chaff from the wheat, now there is a project in and of itself. Perhaps a halfway house for recovering transgenders .. a sort of clearing house that de-programs the brainwashed and offers up real solutions and real support, one that does’nt consist of “you go girl” and “huggies”.

    Only way to do that effectivly is to be start at the top, with the surgeons themselves. They are bombarded with TG’s every day. The surgeons sign up to a clearing house peer review commitee of post surgical women. They require that a surgical candidate be screened. If they pass review they get a discount. Stinks of big brother, elitism, transphobia, homophobia, commercialism and a host of other ism’s .. I like it ! 🙂

  28. Leigh says:

    Jennifer …

    Isnt that the Diane Kearney group? I have a huge problem with HBS’rs in general. I really think they are the other end of the chain, the group of women at church that sit in judgement of all those that enter. Thats how I see Gaughan and Thompson (ts-si), they really want to make me puke with their condescending hollier than thou line of h-BS. Interestingly enough, cooke used to have a similar yahoo group that susan and I joined, then rapidly resigned from. The old line “I wouldnt be a member of any club that would have me as a member”, still holds true. 🙂

  29. Yes Leigh, it is the Diane Kearney group. But don’t knock if you haven’t visited. No, we don’t care for those who would force their label on us, and it is sometimes discussed, but no we don’t sit in judgement. Part of the problem is that there is a person from Spain who uses the term Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome (note the use of a possessive) who does tend to do that. She was a member of our group and was booted for doing just what you describe. And yes, I am familiar with Cooke’s group. It was not a very nice place. Interestingly enough Gaughan and Thompson were also removed from our group.

    Part of the problem is, there was a time when surgery was the issue. If you had surgery, or were at least actively moving that way, you were generally viewed as being a transsexual, and if you were not, you were a crossdresser, albeit possibly a full time one. But now, you have some who are clearly not transsexual, or women for that matter, who are either post-op, or who loudly proclaim (often after years of being an avowed non-op) that they will have the surgery. It is not a matter of sitting in judgement so much as one of simply looking on with concern. I remember one member of the religious right who quoted, quite favorably, from Anne Lawrence to point out how we are all just like amputation fethishists. I wrote to this person, and pointed out her mistake (and that Anne Lawerence had the same surgery that was being attacked). Lawerence was being quoted as a medical expert, not the self-hating disturbed person that Lawrence really is.

    In any case, the invitation stands.

  30. “Only way to do that effectivly is to be start at the top, with the surgeons themselves. They are bombarded with TG’s every day. The surgeons sign up to a clearing house peer review commitee of post surgical women. They require that a surgical candidate be screened. If they pass review they get a discount. Stinks of big brother, elitism, transphobia, homophobia, commercialism and a host of other ism’s .. I like it !”

    Well, you would have to start with Marci Bowers. From what I can tell, Bowers seems to attract a lot of TGs, at least judging from everything I have seen. She was featured in one series, and every one they showed was a disaster waiting to happen.

  31. Susan says:

    Well, personally, I can’t think of anything more boring than to network with others who are post op. All I see in those groups are the same people, saying the same thing, over and over and over again. I’m sick of narratives. Fed up with reading things that I know, they know, and most of the planet knows. I’ve read Suzan Cooke’s, Cathryn Platine, and Diane Kearny’s life story so many times I could recite it backwards.

    Tell me something I don’t know…join in the we’re-not-better-but different rebuttal to the GLBT. Everything else hold little interest on my part.

  32. ariablue says:

    I was hoping that if Suzan Cooke had to write a book on this subject it would have been from the perspective of a woman standing up to the injustice of the situation we face, not as a transgender spokesperson. TG poster child has been done to death. There really hasn’t been anyone speaking out against the crap that’s been going on beyond some stuff on the internet here and there. She really missed out on an opportunity.

    But the way things are it’s just like you say Susan; same old trans crap, different day.

  33. “Tell me something I don’t know…join in the we’re-not-better-but different rebuttal to the GLBT. Everything else hold little interest on my part.”

    Comparing classic or true transsexuals/HBS to LGBT is comparing apples to elephants. It is even more absurd than comparing apples to oranges. We are not remotely in the same group. I have pointed this out for years and the only claims of “better than” are accusations from the TGs. Say you are different, and you will be called elitist. And yet, most I know have never actually said any such thing.

  34. “I was hoping that if Suzan Cooke had to write a book on this subject it would have been from the perspective of a woman standing up to the injustice of the situation we face, not as a transgender spokesperson. TG poster child has been done to death. There really hasn’t been anyone speaking out against the crap that’s been going on beyond some stuff on the internet here and there. She really missed out on an opportunity.”

    Truth be told, in a sense, Cooke has always been basically TG. Cooke has always had a tendency to identify as “other” and to be at odds with most of society. The whole idea of “Women Born Transsexual” seems a variant of TG in that it is a form of identity politics. And TG is strictly identity politics. It is funny, but I was not as surprised by Cooke’s about face as some are. In a way, it makes perfect sense.

  35. Leigh says:

    Marci bowers does indeed cater to the TG crowd .. I went to see her after she took over from Biber, when I was looking for my srs redo. She didn’t impress me at all. She is a business woman, and there are lots of TG’s willing to pay the price. She knows where her bread is buttered.

  36. A N says:

    The thing I have a problem with are the HBS types who feel they need to be “out” so that regular people will know what a “real” transsexual is. I would like for women who transition to begin to realize that “transsexual” is not a “reality”, it is a means towards a reality. I mean, it’s not for everyone but for some of us a ‘female life’ is the goal of transition and part of transition are the ideas in our heads and the words that come out of our mouths. There are certain things that ‘women’ do not say because saying those things would cause them to be perceived as males who transitioned.

    I realize what I am saying is not regarded by all and some seem to think that we need to continue “educating” our oppressors. Some seem to think we need to continue educating people on how to spot a woman who transitioned so that they can distinguish her from other women. But there are some of us who need to live as women and the “educators” are destroying our ability to have the lives we need. When are we going to quit begging Society to “accept” us and get on with the rest of the journey? Transition isn’t just about buying tits and getting a quality cooze, it is also social and mental and I think that as a whole we tend to be our own worse enemies, self-limiting our experiences as women because we feel we have to find a balance between two realities, i.e. the reality that others have of us when they know we used to have a dork and the reality we brought with us into transition that somehow we have always been female. In my opinion one cannot serve two masters and this nonsense about gaining “acceptance” is just that, nonsense. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different outcome. Our first loyalty must be to ourselves.

  37. A N says:

    I have a very low opinion of Doctor Bowers on many levels.

  38. cassandraspeaks says:

    This is to Just Jennifer
    The Diane Kearney group is a place that festers hate and narrow minded one trick phoney dogma. It is for bigots and closed minds. No wonder you fit in nicely.
    By the way how many members do you have now? five I think isn’t it?

  39. Leigh says:

    “There are certain things that women do not say because saying those things would cause them to be perceived as males who transitioned”

    er yeah .. um cooze and dork come to mind.

  40. ariablue says:

    “The thing I have a problem with are the HBS types who feel they need to be “out” so that regular people will know what a “real” transsexual is.”

    I think you are referring to the so-called (out and proud) “transgender”.

  41. Circé says:

    I really like what you are saying in your Hatred article aria, well done 🙂

  42. Cassandra, have you ever been a member of the group, or are you just making assumptions?

  43. A N says:

    Society will stop making a big deal out of us when we stop making such a big deal out of ourselves.

    Nice article AriaBlue 😀