Equivocation

One of the most troublesome problems in the discussion of transgenderism versus transsexualism is the use of underhanded tactics to turn every exchange into a bitter argument, in order to obscure the truth. It makes me wonder what is so terrible that we can’t be allowed to even bring it up. I don’t see a huge problem with crossdressing, but apparently the TG types do. Why else turn every comment on every thread on the internet into a referendum on transsexuality, using transgender as an avatar?

The fallacy of equivocation is one that can take on a dark tone when one side of an argument gets desperate. Some fallacies are simply errors, but often these “errors” are used as a tactic to win when one of the positions is clearly inferior. When this happens, equivocation has been used with the intent to deceive and obscure the truth.

There are two aspects to the transgender paradigm. One, is the political choice to be an “out and proud” transgender person. The second is the nebulous state of being “transgender” because certain people may think you belong to a group based on a recent attempt at creating a dictionary definition.

What both of these have in common is that they are not born, immutable conditions. Clearly, being politically transgender is a choice, and being shoved into a group against your will is not a birth condition. The duplicitous nature of what passes for transgender discourse would have us believe, however, that the choice to belong to a political group is the same as being considered part of a group defined by those self-same politicians who created it- and who now demand membership (or silence) from those who may not want it.  This is classic doublespeak.

This is the usual pattern when one tries to bring up simple truths such as the difference between nouns and verbs with the transgender apologists.  These people will switch back and forth between the two aspects of the word simply to obfuscate and throw everyone off track.  The next statement is usually a backhanded appeal to fairness through the mechanism of accusation be it bigotry, ignorance, or what have you.

The discussion on the net can be quite heated, as we all know. It can be very frustrating to try to talk to people about this topic when the entire discussion is premised on fallacies like this equivocation.  We have arrived at a point where the ridiculous is considered sublime by people caught up in the maelstrom. Things like this can only go so far before they finally run out of gas though. After a time, the protestations simply fall on dead ears. And then people begin to wonder who these people really are.

So… what is so wrong with the word transgender? If these people are so proud, why run from the term they preach in a headlong dash to redefine “transsexual”? And after that, what comes next?

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80 Responses to Equivocation

  1. lisalee18wheeler says:

    What comes next? Why, “bee-stings”, of course. 😉

  2. Jessica says:

    The problem with the word transgender, as I’m quite happy to say publicly here and elsewhere, is the routine context in which it is used–and thus, its meaning.

    The most recent demonstration is the use to which Obama put it in his speech to the HRC truly gala dinner on the eve of the National March for Equality–the single time he used it.

    I will take up Aria’s practice of reposting my comment on Bilerico (with a few changes for clarity):

    I listened with great interest to the speech and found transgender mentioned once, gender identity mentioned once, LGBT mentioned several times and transsexual mentioned not once.

    Scorecards are important in politics.

    Not once did I hear Obama say gay marriage, certainly not the Canadian term “equal marriage.” All I heard him say was relationships and families.

    I also heard him speak of domestic partnerships; this is his history. This has been his long advocacy. I suppose the end of his incrementalism for gay and lesbian people–i.e. not marriage but marriage in everything but name–is OK.

    It wouldn’t be OK for me if I were gay, but I’m not, so I can’t comment on that.

    However, the message I heard from him, as I hear from so many in such positions, the HRC, Egale Canada, the Canadian Rainbow Health Coalition is all consistent.

    ***Transgender is always used in the context of sexual orientation.***

    It is used as the way gay and lesbian people express their sexual orientation; never have I heard any of these people/organizations clarify the simple fact that sexual orientation and gender identity have no necessary connection.

    But then, is that several incremental steps in the future?

    Is this the subject of education in the future?

    The dominant paradigm is as clear in Obama’s speech as in the Canadian Rainbow Health Coalition’s human rights complaint, sorry the private human rights complaint of the executive director of the Coalition, the comments of the Executive Director of Egale Canada, the refusal of Rainbow Health Ontario to declare the exclusion of transsexual people from formal human rights leads to negative health outcomes:

    ***Transgender is part of sexual orientation.***

    Obama is not the leader of the Soviet Union, the HRC Dinner is not Lenin’s Mausoleum, this is not an exercise in reading tea leaves.

    How much plainer can he be?

    Either on his view that domestic partnership is the ultimate goal of his administration or that transgender is simply part of being gay.

    Those who refuse to say transgender and transsexual have enabled him and the HRC and every other organization and all those who simply repudiate our claims to being mis-sexed (reducing us to simply putting on dresses or pants) which enable those who ***are*** transphobic to hurt us, physically, emotionally and in our ability to earn a living–not because of our relationships or how we choose to identify–but who we are.

  3. cassandraspeaks says:

    I agree with you Jessica by and large. Just one thing; I really don’t want to see transsexual used in the same sentences as transgender or to allow any association with it.
    This may be seen as somewhat militant and I guess it is. Currently the situation seems to run pretty much like this, at least from my perspective. Transsexuals want nothing to do with transgender or gay, transgender dare not give up transsexual for it is we who lend credibility to their status. Transsexual have far more in common with intersex conditions yet tintersex by and large want nothing to do with transsexual. Gay see us all as one big happy family and the flare ups as nothing more than family squabbles or women being women and having a hissy fit. The rest of the world just wish we’d all go hide under a rock somewhere and let them pretend we don’t exist.
    Personally I just seek a return to the time when people understood that transsexual was the rare birth condition it is that can be cured. Do I believe it will happen? Not if we don’t stop in fighting and get organised.

  4. Zoe Brain says:

    cassandra – an excellent summary, one I fully agree with. I’d add some relatively unimportant details about biology being messy, there’s some overlap etc but maybe omitting them would be best for the sake of clarity.

  5. Joanne says:

    Cassandra said,

    Personally I just seek a return to the time when people understood that transsexual was the rare birth condition it is that can be cured. Do I believe it will happen? Not if we don’t stop in fighting and get organised.

    And one that I, also, agree with. We’ve been barraged with polemics about suppositional biological ‘overlaps’ for years.

    If push comes to shove most of the so-called ‘overlaps’ exist as a result of the gender-babble way research is interpreted.

    When somebody can come up with evidence that brain biology can make an individual want to wear the culturally gender coded clothing of the other sex, Or identify with the socially and culturally constructed role of the other sex, I’ll be happy to consider it.

    Until then Occam’s Razor demands the most simple explanation for TG’ism: That is self reinforcing, sexually arousing, quasi-addictive, gender role transgressive behaviors.

    Add a strong element of denial and you have all the explanation necessary!

  6. Circé says:

    What would it take, what effort would be demanded that would bring women born with our condition ( transsexuality ) to actually stand up and be counted once and for all. I’m here thinking on this after watching for i don’t remember how many times ” Milk “. I know, what does Gay or GLBT causes have to do with us, well i’ll say it here and now, everything. Everything that has to do with human rights, everything to do with coming out of our closets and saying; enough, i’m not going to take it anymore !

    I’ve engaged in speaking out on various blogs to educate and clear up the lies made about transsexuality. I’ve stood up to this or that movement who would co-opt our lives and experiences, i have put my life on the line but now i think something bigger is necessary so that the voices of transsexuals are heard far and wide, that our societies finally understand that we are their sisters, wives, parents and children and that we deserve every right they now enjoy, and nothing less.

    What i want to see happen is a revolution, one in which the voices of all women of transsexual experience is heard, i ask that all of you, my sisters, tell your families and friends who you are, that you stand up and be counted as this is the only way we will ever be heard, that we will ever be accepted. I’m tired and i won’t take it anymore.

  7. Leigh says:

    Circe ..

    eh .. not gonna happen here .. Need to know basis and thats as far as I am willing to disclose.

    Nice Idea though! .. Good luck with that 🙂

  8. Circé says:

    thank you Leigh, i’ll work on my idea as i do think it’s the way. No one is goinfg to hand us anything on a silver platter or play nice with us if we don’t take a stand. So i’ll start with me and find others who are willing and maybe something positive and concrete can be achieved.

  9. SA-ET says:

    “I know, what does Gay or GLBT causes have to do with us, well i’ll say it here and now, everything.”

    WOW!!! Unless I misunderstood your point, I absolutely couldn’t disagree more. The GLBT is the problem, almost in total. They are singularly responsible for the mainstream’s view of us in stereotype as nothing but a bunch of queer men.

  10. Joanne says:

    Hi SA-ET 🙂

    Interesting: the way different people interpret statements in different ways.

    As I read Circe’s words, she was making the same point you are: that GLBTQ’s have a lot to answer for, and are a significant cause of IS / TS problems.

    She approached the obvious conclusion in a different way. I think it is still the same as yours.

    The GLBT is the problem, almost in total. They are singularly responsible for the mainstream’s view of us in stereotype as nothing but a bunch of queer men.

    Yep! They get an awful lot of help from gender babbling, fruit-loop, outfits like WPATH and the APA. It’s their definitions and labels that are waved under our noses as evidence by the true believers. And GLBTQ’s are undoubtedly that. 🙂

  11. Circé says:

    thank you Joanne, iam not always the clearest oratress around, hehe. I think that all the crap coming out of the GLBT/TG movements are pure misogyny.

    I am trying to focus on getting our truth out there, and i happen to think that maybe, just maybe we can get more done in regards to being understood and getting out from under the GLBT/TG movements shadow by being even more public. I’m not saying that i have clear cut solutions , i don’t, but i do feel like i want to stand up, out there in public and scream till my lungs are burning, i want our lives to no longer be seen as ” those crazy people “, etc,.

    I hate being included within those movements as a women much like all of you, i absolutely hate that. But i will find my inspirations were i see them and i find that Harvey Milk had it right when it comes to pushing for rights or getting the mainstream to be on our side, he went out there and spoke his truth to all that would listen and then some.

    I know what i am speaking about is scary and i know we are not numerous and spread far and wide, i know i often think; what the heck am i doing all this for, i have a wonderful life, i have a career, i’m married, own a beautiful house on a mountainside. I’ve found but one answer that satisfies my question; i am aware of how bad things are and because i am, i cannot walk away.

  12. SA-ET says:

    Joanne…Circe’

    Thanks to both of you; obviously I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

  13. Leigh says:

    Harvey Milk was a man, a gay man but just a man. He looked like the average Joe of his time, he acted like it and he was biologically a man.

    Tula (Caroline Cossey), was probably one of the best examples of the real deal transsexed person we ever had, and they crucified her.

    The interesting thing about our situation is how we are classed by the public if our background is known. If we are partnered with a woman, we are a lesbian, which in turn says woman. If we are partnered with a man, even married to one, we are both classed as gay men with one being effeminate and the other being a closeted bi-sexual.

    The entire concept is definatly tied into Homosexual perceptions and defies all logic. So I say go ahead and step out and see if anyone takes you any more seriously than they currently take any out and proud transgender.

  14. Circé says:

    Yes, i’m aware that Harvey Milk was a man, what is important in what i am trying to say however is the idea of getting our lives out there, and yes, i’ll probably be crucified and maybe even worse but maybe that’s better than wondering what could have been.

    I acknowledge and honour anyone’s right to not come out in public and i ask only the same for stepping out. Be well.

  15. cassandraspeaks says:

    The second, the very second it becomes public knowledge that we had corrective surgery the descriptive “woman” is stripped from us. It will matter not a jot what we look like or sound like. Google Kim Petras sometime and read the headline “Sex Change Boy”
    Revealing history is self defeating because we are instantly described as other than woman. We in fact become transgender in the minds of the world. Personally I wouldn’t seriously compromise my situation for any reason whatsover, it was hard won and is far too precious. I would not suggest any of us declare that we were transsexual, We need to again take ownership of “Transsexual” it’s definition as a word and as a condition. Transgender will not readily give it up for it is their only claim to credibility.
    There was a time when we were credible women when Christine Jorgensen’s story first hit the headlines. For a few years we had credibilty. It’s my opinion that the ctritical point of loss was Justice Ormrods reliance on XX Xy chromosomes in the April Ashley divorce case. It reverberated around the world and many subsequent legal cases have cited the decision to decide cases. What has never been made very public is that the case was overturned by the House of Lords shortly after the passing of the “Gender Recognition Act” 2004
    Our challenge is to win this “War Of Indepenence” to be the organisation that media approach for information, It is the organisation that must be public not it’s members.

  16. Joanne says:

    Hi everyone 🙂

    Cassandra wrote:
    Our challenge is to win this “War Of Indepenence” to be the organisation that media approach for information, It is the organisation that must be public not it’s members.

    I agree with this statement – though of necessity some will have to be the revolution’s public faces.

    A lesson might be learned from the way OII has established itself, with representatives in different countries and with individuals who volunteer themselves as speakers.

    Infinitely better to have small, tightly knit groups in different countries, all singing from the same song-book, each looking after their own patch and sharing their strategies and experiences so we could all learn from them.

    We should expect the GLBTQ hate-fest as a matter of course.

  17. Leigh says:

    Unfortunatly, Cassandra is right. Becoming visible other’s us.

    How do we know this?

    Simple .. Ask yourself why it matters to any of us that the transgender claim transsexuality? If we are just women like any other woman as we claim, why does it matter what the transgender do?

    The answer to that is because IF we are outed, we become them in the eyes of the public.

    Standing up and outing ourselves for any reason will garner the exact same result. How do I know? I did it here in the small community I live in, and although it has not gotten me beaten to death, it has other’d me in the way people now interact with me versus the way they used to interact with me for the several years prior. And frankly, it is by far the very worse thing I have ever done.

  18. i can only get knocked around so much.

    i’m ready to give up.

  19. Aria Blue says:

    It’s fine if some don’t want to be visible. As was stated, not everyone has to be a public figure. What we’re talking about is adding to what we are doing, not changing the course. It will be fine to have a few public faces and a number of voices out in the wilderness like we have now, I don’t see any conflict.

  20. Joanne says:

    Hi Aria Blue
    I can’t see the problem either. There are slightly different situations in different countries. But the messages are pretty much the same.

    So long as we all keep supporting other, as we have done so far, then where are the internal difficulties?

  21. Circé says:

    I support my sisters here and only ask that you don,t go jumping mad because i say ” out “. Leigh and Cassandra, i respect your views even if i don’t fully agree with them and i hope you can do the same in my direction. You all go and do what you feel is necessary on blogs, so if i decide, for me, to try ssome other line of action, it would be just a little comforting to know some of you will give support in spirit.

    thank you

  22. Ishtar says:

    Hello Leigh

    Why does it have to work like this, the moment you are “out” is the moment you are “Transgender”. the public are misinformed, usually by gay folks funnily enough. they do seem to dominate the discussion and categorise according to their perceptions. I don’t know if this is relevant but I have found heterosexual folks easier going that Gay folks when it comes to being intersexed. I suspect it may be similar with transsexual folks, they are accepted more by the wider community than by gay folk. Perhaps it is best to just bypass the whole gay scene.

    🙂

  23. Circé says:

    This way, no worries for any of you; i’ll assume the responsibility of being othered. 🙂

  24. Leigh says:

    Whoa!!!

    I am not getting on anyones case for ‘offering’? to out themself. If Circe wants to go that route then more power to her, you are a brave woman dear, i’ll hold your coat, go get em slugger! ..

    Noooooo… I am just presenting warnings based on my experience. I hope I am totally wrong.

    Hi Ishtar

    Yes the public are misinformed, and yes by the GLBT, and yes heterosexuals are easier going than the GLBT folks, less judgemental, and all of that stuff..

    Do non of you ever read what I write? I have said all this stuff before on numerous blogs, where in my opinion the GLBT are the bug eyed monster. Like it or not we are mostly defined by the loudest majority groups. Yes we need to get the message out to mainstream, yes if someone wants to go do Oprah and slam the transgender GLB for their lies and misinformation, yes thats probably what it will take to really move us off first base.

    And unlike the intersex, but not so much really since they too are being targeted for inclusion to the LGBT against their will, the transsexuals are already included and with that has come almost universal mainstream perception that we are not only the same thing but that we must be gay as well.

    Ok I have said all I am going to say on this.

    Good luck to you Circe!

    If you are gonna do this go all the way!

  25. kamododragon says:

    Hey ya,
    A note to everyone, if you are looking for something very shocking. Take a look at this;
    http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/10/actually-this-is-true.html

    http://oiiaustralia.com/intersex-australians-sex-offenders-register/

    In Australia, which Zoe Brain is from. If you take this medication which is Androcur. Your Doctor in Australia has to inform you that in order to take that medication, you have to be placed on the sex offender registry in Australia to get Androcur. Since Zoe Brain is taking Androcur, Zoe Brain and many other intersex and trans living in Australia are classed with registered Sex offenders. They are placed on the sex offender registry and are classed with them as well.

    Don’t believe me, go read Zoe’s blog and OII Australia’s blog.

  26. SA-ET says:

    This sex offender thing has fishy written all over it.

  27. Joanne says:

    The issue was raised well over a year ago with the (gay)Australian Human Rights Commissioner, Graham Innes. He’s obviously been too busy running around making sure that TG’s can get their bits of paper changed to take care of the matter!

  28. Ishtar says:

    Hello Leigh

    “I have said all this stuff before on numerous blogs, where in my opinion the GLBT are the bug eyed monster.”

    How ironic you would say that 🙂 I can think of two hundred and twenty seven reasons for finding it ironic.

    Hi Kammododragon.

    In the UK they have a “Gender register” that it seems the UK law enforcment treat as being the same as the sex offenders register. It is actually quite a broad problem this. they employ different means to “list” innocent people. but the effect is always the same.

  29. kamododragon says:

    Yea, but being that I am from America and in America you won’t see this sort of thing happen to either intersex or trans people. Thanks in part to the US Constitution, Bill of rights and Congress.

    I know some of you who try and claim that they have far better freedoms than I do, but when crap like this shows up on blogs everywhere. You really have to wonder why someone would claim why they have it better in their country and see what really happens.

    That’s why I’m not too shocked over what’s being done over in Australia because in America, it’s far different

  30. kamododragon says:

    Take a look at Zoe’s blog. She confirmed it that’s she’s on the Australian National sex offender registry because She’s taking Androcur. Even OII Australia Members are on the sex offender registry as well and they have it posted on their blog as well. I would pretty much think, OII has a major issue with the fact that their Australian membership is placed on the sex offender registry because they are prescribed Androcur.

  31. Aria Blue says:

    That’s one of the best arguments against the kind of “single payer” health care system that so many people seem to be enamored with today. While it stinks not to have health insurance, I’d much rather the government didn’t have these kinds of powers to just dictate things to people.

    If people are so hell-bent on having government health care, and I agree that we have a serious problem with the corporatist system driven by so-called insurance companies that has put it out of reach, we should certainly cover people who are getting their paychecks raided.

    All this talk about grandiose schemes just sounds hollow in this time of impeding austerity. What really needs to happen is a destruction of the insurance industry as it now stands. The last thing we need is a shifting of life and death decisions from one body of bureaucrats to another. How is that ever going to accomplish anything?

    My question is why can’t we just expand Medicare to cover the people paying for it? The sacking of the young to benefit the not-so-young is a trend whose time is over.

  32. Joanne says:

    Well, I stand to be corrected – but!

    I’m pretty sure that Australia operates a ‘Medicare’ health insurance scheme. Its different from New Zealand where health care is state funded and available universally to all citizens, regardless of age.

    Health insurers may have a larger influence on treatment options in Australia, including pharaceuticals, than in NZ.

    Here pharmaceutical options are purchased through a government drug buying agency called Pharmac. Pharmac’s bulk purchasing means that drugs are obtained at a significantly cheaper rate than most other countries.

    Androcure is available on prescription in NZ. It is subsidized by Pharmac. It must be prescribed by a senior clinician, such as an endocrinologist or a urologist. Endocrinologists and urologists can be seen through the public health service.

    I suspect the sex offender B/S in Australia has more to do with that country’s hybrid health system and the unwillingness of the health insurers, than it does with a publicaly funded health service

  33. I suspect what is probably happening in Australia is caused by adherence to a formulary by the health care system. They probably have rules as to what medicine can be given for what condition. In the U.S. many health insurance companies do this same thing. For example, they might allow Finasteride to be prescribed for BPH or prostate cancer, but restrict its use for the treatment of male pattern baldness, requiring the patient to cover the cost. In order to use it to treat a transsexual patient, they would possibly diagnose BPH even though the patient does not have this condition. In a similar way, Australia probably restricts Androcur to either sex offender or those with prostate cancer. Since it would be much harder to fake a diagnosis of prostate cancer, they label the patient a sex offender to cover the treatment. This might could be bypassed if the patient is allowed to pay out of pocket, thus avoiding the government system, but that may not be allowed. In the United States, a doctor can, theoretically, prescribe just about any drug for any purpose, provided it is an approved drug, and it is not a controlled substance. Unless it has changed, Adrocur is not approved for use in the U.S.

  34. Aria Blue says:

    “This might could be bypassed if the patient is allowed to pay out of pocket, thus avoiding the government system, but that may not be allowed.”

    Thanks Jennifer that is what I was trying to get at. Especially in the US where we have so much rooted in Puritan ethos, the distribution of (public) money takes on a moral dimension. Questions of funding, over time, transform into dictates by fiat.

    Things like the over-21 drinking age being tied to federal highway funds turn into religious campaigns. That’s the sort of special case in the US that other countries may not have a problem with, and it’s something to watch out for in health care here.

  35. That was a major problem with the Clinton health care plan. Based on what I read, it would not have allowed people to obtain health care outside the system, and thus would have caused problems if you needed something that was not approved. And since the plan would not cover transsexualism, that could have been very bad.

  36. Joanne says:

    Another possibility in the case of Australia is that Medicare has opted for cheaper alternatives for prostate cancer, and their justice system (managing the sex offenders list)is picking up the tab for androcure. In that case the only way to get it would be via the sex offenders pathway.

    I don’t know enough about the situation over there, and can only guess, like every one else. It would be nice to get some clarification by people who actually know what the situation is. 🙂

  37. kamododragon says:

    I would Talk to A.E Brain and OII Australia. Those two are from the area and they are on the list as well. I have heard from OII Australia, that their whole entire membership is on the sex offender registry as well.

    Though I am glad they don’t pull this sort of stunt in America as well. I guess I would still be worried about universal health care coverage that Mr Obama and the Democrats are trying to pass in the US

  38. Joanne says:

    KD Wrote:

    I have heard from OII Australia, that their whole entire membership is on the sex offender registry as well.

    Both of them?

  39. kamododragon says:

    That’s what I have been hearing online and in those blogs including OII Australia’s blog.

  40. Joanne says:

    Interesting. Two IS people run OII Australia. It doesn’t have a member’s list per se. It refers contacts on to the OII International discussion groups.

    I’m not sure what their plans are for the future because I only have occasional contact with them.

    But for the moment two individuals constitute the membership of OII Australia.

  41. Zoe Brain says:

    I’m not a member of OII (Aust), but I may join. I’m more with SAGE, Sex And Gender Education (Australia).

    Just Jennifer’s surmise is correct. It is difficult (and until a month ago, very difficult indeed) to obtain pharmaceuticals not on the PBS register – the (Govt run) Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme.

    Certain drugs are highly restricted, amongst them Androcur. To get permission to prescribe this drug, the diagnosis must be reviewed. There are 3 conditions where it is allowed to be prescribed under the (VERY heavily subsidised) PBS price.

    1014 Advanced carcinoma of the prostate;
    1230 Moderate to severe androgenisation in non-pregnant women (acne alone is not a sufficient indication of androgenisation).
    1404 To reduce drive in sexual deviations in males.

    Only a 1404 diagnosis puts you on the list. But unless you actually have prostate cancer, or are recognised as being biologically female, it’s the only possibility.

    In theory, you should be able to get it on the open market, with an appropriate prescription. In practice, importation via mail order requires obtaining an import license from the Therapeutic Goods Authority, and obtaining it locally is nigh impossible as the pharmacist would have to keep $100,000 worth of additional inventory. This is possible for some of the larger organisations, in the capital cities, but even then, the cost would be in the thousands to the patient, rather than the standard $38 fee. It’s not financially feasible, and there may be a multi-year delay. I know of only one person who managed to do it for a while.

    There are no drugs approved for treating Transsexuality as such under the PBS. However, such drugs as Estrodiol Valerate, which on the open market would cost ~$35 (vice $38 under the PBS), do not require special authorisation – the medic can just say “for HRT” and no questions are asked about the exact circumstances.

    The system works well in general: this specific anomaly needs correction though, as has been pointed out to the Australian Human Rights Commission. A greater problem is the lack of knowledge amongst the medical profession here of “best practices” in treating Intersex and Transsex conditions. Apart from a handful known to the Gender Centre in Sydney, Monash in Melbourne etc they’re completely clueless.

  42. Zoe Brain says:

    p.s. I know whereof I speak – I’ve been invited by several Med and Psych professors to give remedial lectures to their students on the issue. What is scary is that I have no formal medical training, yet in this one tiny, specific area, I know not just more than the med students, but their professors too.

  43. Joanne says:

    Thanks heaps Zoe 🙂 That beats all the speculation. I remember it being raised with The Australian HRC. He was supposed to be conducting a separate inquiry into IS issues. Has that started?

  44. Circé says:

    Hello Anne,

    Of course, for me, a woman born with this transsexual condition is simply that, a female with a variation, period. The very lucky and fortunate of us get access to corrective surgeries and either gone on with our lives in a quiet setting for the rest of our lives or i cases like me, openly out though not screaming it on any rooftops, hehe. Either choice is fine in my book as they are choices.

    I do think more needs to be done to protect and facilitate the path for those of us less fortunate. Here, in the province of Quebec in Canada, our government has recently added SRS as a covered medical intervention to their Health Care mandate which means that all women ( and men ) of transsexual origins can now access corrective surgery once they have gotten their letters and all been through the necessary steps.

    Anyone choosing not to have recourse to corrective surgeries who are of healthy body and mind would not come under the condition of transsexuality and thus transgender or other.

  45. Leigh says:

    Anne, you are a day late and a dollar short.

    Unfortunatly, the fuel has all but dissipated in this fight. When we repeatedly asked for like minded individuals to step forward and make themselves known, few did. Of those that did step up to be counted, many said little or nothing. We all of us have lives, none of us want to be public figures and some of us could not find a way forward that allowed them to be blunt, brutal and still sleep at night.

    Some of us could no longer watch others continue to eat the dead after having carved them to pieces on the battlefield. It was a brutal war, a civil war where we often killed our own in order to get at the GLBT puppet masters that pulled their strings. Some of us could not reconcile their beliefs with the carnage their words had wrought, no less than lead, and the bayonet that fell upon those that we knew where not the real problem. Wars do that. They kill more innocents than combatants.

    Susan’s blog (SA-ET) Enough Nonsense (EN) was arguably the catalyst that formed the movement you have stumbled upon in it’s death throws. It is also, arguably, the reason most of us, including ariablue on this blog have stopped blogging on this subject. The trenches are empty save a very few who roam around wondering if they will ever fill again. Some new ones come by, as you have, they read the articles and identify with the message. They take up the cause and fire off some parting shots into the night that fall silent into the day. A tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it. We won, as best we could have ever hoped to win. We had our say and we are now all but gone.

    Only the articles remain to enlighten those that follow, an artifact from a long past group that have washed their hands and moved on with their lives.

  46. joanne says:

    Hi All 🙂

    Anne wrote:
    Are you all forgetting the heart wrenching decisions, the fear, the uncertainty, the unknown that we all suffered through.

    I don’t think any of us are forgetting any part of our individual journey’s Anne.

    I’m just as sure we remember the relief when the life sentence in the prison of those alien bodies was commuted and we began to smell and taste, to eat, drink and love without confusion or despair.

    Unlike Leigh I don’t think this fight is over. The consummate arrogance of people who believe they can impose their beliefs onto others hasn’t simply dissipated into thin air. They will keep on behaving the way they do. The last event was a brush-fire skirmish and it will flare up again. And again…

    The problem is created by colonization and forced assimilation. Like all people, we alone have the right to describe our own experiences and determine our own lives.

    I doubt the identity paradigmists and gender theorists would see themselves this way, but they have become fundamentalists and blinkered slaves to their foolish cult.

    I, for one, will not allow them to make me a slave to it also!

  47. Leigh says:

    Anne asked

    “What about those who have the same gender/sex brain/body disconnect that we all had prior to our SRS but for financial, medical or other significant reasons cannot medically correct the problem? What happens to them?”

    We have one such gal amongst us (anonymous T Girl), with one of those issues. We accept her the same as we would any of us post op gals because she is the real deal and has shown that in her actions, her thoughts and a huge displeasure at being considered transgender. She knows she is the real deal, we know that too.

    As for others, yes I am sure there are many, but to my way of thinking, if they take up a transgender attitude and mind think where all of us are simply elitist, homophobic, transphobic, privledged, white and wealthy, had it easy, no good victimizers of the community, well, as the old saying goes, you made your bed, now lay in it. I have zero tollerance for that sort of person. There are very few that cannot do SRS due to health. The vast majority are due to financial reasons which is understandable but not excusable if they simply never strive to improve their financial position. Personally, I had to work damned hard to get the money for SRS and I had to sacrifice a lot of other wants and needs to get it. As for the rest of the reasons behind the NON-OP, all of them are in my opinion total bullshit lame excuses and they are simply transgendered through and through.

  48. Leigh says:

    WTF .. Anne I am seriously thinking you are a fake. Please sod off to your pink club .. thanks

  49. joanne says:

    ROFL 🙂
    Jasper would be right at home there. Maybe Anne could teach him some GOP DIY. 😉

  50. Leigh says:

    LOL .. yep Anne’s IP address resolves to argentina, a big give away there. I am thinking it’s either dysonnance or perhaps zoe brain. Either way, a troll and a total fake.

  51. joanne says:

    Not Zoe 🙂 Zoe is a genuine ‘true believer’. But I don’t think she’s that devious. Besides her usual modus operandi is lobb a dogma grenade into a conversation then sit back and wait to see what happens.

    I suspect this one is just poking a stick into an available hornets nest to how much life is still left in it. 😉

    Sigh! They never let up!

  52. Sara says:

    Wow. So very strange. ATG called it a while ago, that’s one intuitive woman there. What I don’t get is why anyone would do such a weird thing? Why make up such a complex identity and then try to pawn it off as reality? What can possibly be gained from this behavior?

    When this person mentioned my hometown of Oxnard, California (in a post on EN I believe) and a beach house “she” owned there I so bought into it as I body-surfed those beaches in front of those million-dollar homes for years. Those homes are definitely real. I waited on those rich people in a beach-side restaurant I worked in. Totally believable.

    Anyway it boggles the mind.

    Sara …

  53. lisalee18wheeler says:

    This sounds like a man with a vagina. I *am* giving them the benefit of doubt, though.

    No one I know would even jokingly suggest “Pinkessence”, the home of transvestites and “bee stings”!

    And Anne, don’t bother responding. No one is listening. Except maybe Zoe… LOL

  54. joanne says:

    Kiaora Lisalee, Leigh 😉

    Same old, same old, really. They arrive under false pretences. They huff, they puff, they posture, they strut their way across the center of their own imaginary stages. They beat their chests and thump their tubs!

    The bad taste, over-done, let’s be girly websites, the, ‘we’re all in this together’ messages. A spew of abuse. Some more puffery … da-da-da!

    I’ve lost count. How many “Anne’s” have there been? Have their bizarre pissing competitions have produced anything except splash stains on their own shoes? And why do they bother: is it some kind of rite of passage?

    Perhaps they’re all the same person!

    Sigh! Could it be that Schrodinger’s cat wants feeding again?

  55. Leigh says:

    Actually, I wasnt the one to track your IP. That was cassandraspeaks who figured you for a total fake shortly after you landed at EN. And yes, Anon T Girl also called you out last week after you posted bilerico stuff here. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt figuring that with enough rope you would hang yourself, and you did.

    Don’t you find it interesting how you try to infiltrate a group of people with a common experience and fall flat on your face simply because you are not one of them and have not experienced the same issues? I believe this exposure of you is testament to what we have been saying all along, that classic transsexuals are different than you transgenders. We certainly know our own and you dear do not fit.

    Nice try though!

  56. Leigh says:

    LOL .. you cant even get that part right.

    Here’s a clue .. classic transsexualism has nothing to do with crossdressing, or clothes. It is about the inner self, the innate knowledge that one is not their assigned birth gender. Transgenders cannot get that because they don’t experience it and in fact ARE their assigned birth gender, and that was where your little deception fell down, just as it does in the real world.

  57. cassandraspeaks says:

    Anne, I have read the verbal exchanges between you and the other women here with some amusement partially because I know these women very well and love and respect each and every one of them for their compassion and intellect. Far from the “losers” you have called my friends they are actually as a collective, some very successful and intelligent women indeed. Among the people you have just described as “losers” are owners of multi- million dollar public corporations, Civil engineers, University Graduates and internationally renowned artists, we are not all of us “wealthy” but we are all women who have founded families and are well respected in our communities. Far from “losers” we are all highly successful women,

    Since you introduced yourself too us you have questioned our attitude to transgender, hinted that we are perhaps harsh in our reluctance to accept certain aspects of transgender doctrines and in your latest introduced us to a collection of “transvestites” and asked us to be “open minded” Re posted whole essays of garbage from a Gay advocacy site where the vast majority of our antagonists spew their nonsense about us. These are the very people who seek to eradicate our identity. When we rejected these transgender pretenders you began to call us “losers”. In addition to all this you hint that you are resident in USA and yet post from Argentina. Many of our enemies who would infiltrate our ranks use proxy servers and conceal their identities using such methods. We are not stupid and you make a serious mistake if you think of us as such.

    We have encountered all of these issues and attitudes before and on each occasion the result has been the same. It has either turned out to be someone we already knew attempting to infiltrate our ranks, or it has turned out to be yet another “transvestite jerking off at the thought they have become one of us. When the reality is that they are a happily married man with five kids jerking off in front of his computer while wearing his wife’s underwear. We have all of us been around a long time. Not a single one of us are stupid enough to be fooled more than twice. If you want to become one of us it’s going to take more than a few “seemingly naïve posts.” Maybe all you say about yourself is true, however from where I sit it look about as likely as my having a sexual encounter with his Pontif the Pope!

    So far ANNE, from our point of view right now, you look to be part of the problem and not part of any solution.

  58. joanne says:

    They come in flying false colors, they attempt to ingratiate themselves and fail every time because they cannot stop the male posturing.

    Personally I doubt every aspect of this troll’s self- introduction, just as I doubt the individual narrative that followed it. ‘Anne’s’ (or whatever other name attaches itself to this individual) original duplicity permits no other conclusion.

    I think this one must be awfully insecure. I believe the only motive was to stir. Its all a bit sad really.

  59. Leigh says:

    yup Joanne .. pretty damn pathetic as you say.

  60. Zoe Brain says:

    One of the things that made me doubt my femininity when young was that I didn’t exhibit one set of behaviours many other girls my age did.

    I wasn’t bitchy, petty, mean and spiteful to those girls who weren’t with the “in crowd”.

    I’ve observed the same phenomenon amongst some gay men too.

    I could also never understand why those victimised got so hurt by the meanness either. Either the insults were true, something you were born with, like freckles. Or true, and something you could change, and should change about yourself. Or false. In the first case, it’s not your fault, so ignore it. In the second, it’s valid criticism, so thank them for drawing it to your attention. And in the third case, ignore it, it’s meaningless drivel.

    It’s probably just me. Because I have so much respect for the regular contributors here, Leigh, SA-ET, etc even though we have such differing interpretations of the same objective facts, and I’ve taken quite a few barbs from them without even noticing.

    When Leigh wrote:
    “Here’s a clue .. classic transsexualism has nothing to do with crossdressing, or clothes. It is about the inner self, the innate knowledge that one is not their assigned birth gender.”

    Well yes, it is. And I think Diamond’s Biased-Interaction theory of gender development is an accurate account of why a cross-sexed brain causes this innate knowledge too.

    As regards TGs though… I’m less sure. “Classic” TS’s have been studied extensively, because they’re easy to differentiate from, well, men in dresses. The more “classic” the better, so samples that differ in any detail have been excluded from study.

    Heck, I’d exclude me, partly because I’m IS, partly because I’m not “classically feminine”. I wear makeup sometimes, but not often. I keep on promising myself I’ll get a manicure, but never seem to have the time. I only started noticing boys were really cute at age 48, not at age 12. And I’m a Geekette, the nerdiness overwhelms the femininity. I’m comfortable with that too, Doris Day was never a role model, Hypatia of Alexandria, Ada Lovelace and Rosamund Franklin were more my style.

    The point is that I am loath to make pronouncements about the great spectrum of human behaviour we label as “TG”. At one end, we have intersexed women who are tomboys with masculinised genitalia due to CAH for example, but who are comfy with that. At the other, the man who gets sexual jollies from playing dress-up on weekends.

    None of these people have been studied to the same degree “classic trans women” have. Not through autopsies, not through MRI scans. Until we get some data to work with, I can’t make arrogant statements about what and who they are. I have opinions, that one end is neurologically female, the other end just a guy with a quirky psychology, but I don’t have any actual evidence of either.

  61. anoldfriend says:

    This anne is something else.

  62. joanne says:

    Zoe said:
    The point is that I am loath to make pronouncements about the great spectrum of human behaviour we label as “TG”. At one end, we have intersexed women who are tomboys with masculinised genitalia due to CAH for example, but who are comfy with that. At the other, the man who gets sexual jollies from playing dress-up on weekends.

    Another dogma grenade, Zoe? The TG Panzer Brigade just keeps rolling right along. It neither knows nor cares about truth or difference.

    Its ugliness is in the sweeping, blanket attributions that are thrown across a raft of human differences merely on the basis of superficial observations.

    You are, unfortunately susceptible to whatever latest TG fashion trend, or most recent idiotic of dogma that emerges. Thus you rudely insult and condemn.

    You write: Until we get some data to work with, I can’t make arrogant statements about what and who they are.

    Nor, Zoe, should you do the reverse: that is to make assumptions to the effect that without the evidence its acceptable to treat or regard them as the same.

    And Zoe, one more thing. You may refer to yourself using whatever label or category you choose and which you feel best meets your particular needs. That is simply part of your right to autonomy over your own life.

    Other people have that same right, exactly as you do. I can’t think of anyone (except perhaps you and Anne) who would be so pig ignorant, (in this conversation) as to use the term trans woman on themselves or others.

    I’m pretty sure that non of us went through emotional and physical turmoil and change just to come out the other side the same way we went in. I’m also pretty sure that when we were struggling to come to terms with the awful dissonance, that worsened as our bodies changed around us, we weren’t so unambitious as to set our sites on becoming trans-women.

    I think we became female. And I think we should be respected for that. If you choose not to extend that same respect to yourself then that is up to you. There are times when I find the latter perfectly understandable, and I have difficulty extending it to you also.

  63. Leigh says:

    Par for the course zoe.

    Why must everything in your world come down to scientific findings, studies, expert opinion and observation. Some things just are, or to put it another way, sometimes a banana is just a banana. I would guess most of us that comment here have been subject over and over to tests and evaluations by so called experts in their field. Most of them came to the conclusion we were transsexed because the evidence for it sat in front of them asking for surgery, not willing to take no for an answer, and willing to pay whatever it cost to do it.

    For me .. scientific or not, that is pretty much the acid test. How much you want something in this life, and to what lengths you are willing to go to get it, is more telling than any studies or scientific data. For instance, I have always been an airplane nut. I have always dreamed of flying powerful piston engine military aircraft. At the age of 18, I could have joined the RAF, I almost did except for the knowledge that my transsexualism would not allow me to live that life. I instead went into civil aviation, became an air traffic controller, took flying lessons and soon realised that I could not afford such a grand hobby. Instead I decided to enter the business world, realizing that if I was ever to make my goals I needed money first. Several attempts at that were fruitless, one attempt almost made me a millionaire but having held it fleetingly in my hand, the next year I lost it all. Penniless again, and in despair I went to the charing cross gender clinic under Dr John Randall, the nastiest, meanest, no nonsense man I had ever met. Within a week, at his challenge to do so or never darken his doors again, I was in full time transition and working.

    My story is not unique, it is similar in its account to those of others I have met that had a burning desire to correct. We walked through hell to get where we wanted to go, we remained focused on the goal and we eventually achieved it through perseverence and will power. I never did learn to fly. Fourty years on my love for those things still holds as my number one passion but the fact is I never wanted it enough, I wasn’t willing to pay the price, it was not an all encompassing driving need in my life.

    Thats how I see it with most transgenderists. For them, everything gets in the way, family, friends, relationships, money, health because they are now past 50. The acid test? Go sell your house, rent an apartment. Mortgage it and use the money for SRS. Sell your business if you have one. Cash in your retirement plan. Sell your car and buy a clunker. If you have kids, tough luck, nobody asked you too and if that was more important to you then you really dont need to be doing SRS or joining the transgender juggernaut. You will lose your job? .. oh dear, become a waitress. Nobody will hire you? … your not convincing enough, work on it!.

    Bottom line, quit with the excuses and quit blaming everyone else, INCLUDING US, for not accepting you. As Cassandra said, you want what I got, get off your fat ass and go get it. Work for it, work toward it, beg borrow or steal if you have to. There is a price to pay. If you won’t pay it, don’t point your finger this way and call me transphobic, small minded, fearful, self loathing and delusional.

    Every time I get on a plane these days I feel secure in the knowledge that the pilot up there in the cockpit had to pay his or her dues to earn that position. Do I want just anyone there doing his or her job? hell no! They do it because they love it, they are born to it, they are driven to it, that is their calling in life. I get so tired of the whiners, and you zoe… I get tired of the experts and the scientists and the fence sitters and the armchair psychoanalysts.

    And the Anne’s of the world, the poor little orphan annies that want to steal my identity to shore up their illigitimate identity that in the end analysis does nothing more than makes all our identities invalid in the eyes of a watching world.

  64. joanne says:

    hallelujah! Leigh –
    except I’m stuffed if I know why either you or any of the rest of us bothered. Some of us lived our abused ridiculed childhoods. We were abandoned by parents, siblings, friends and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

    We made it. Now people like trans Zoe, trans woman, trans Brain and her ugly trans dogma trans friends could turn us all into trans clones.

    Too bad that we just wanted to fix our problem and live out our normal lives. They are not about to let that happen. No Ma’am! They’re going to label, categorise and other us-whether we like it or not.

    Zoe and her ilk are as much fundamentalists and deniers as your friend, John Randall. In their eyes our status never changes.

    We’re trans before, trans during and trans afterward. Long after we’ve stopped transiting anything, we’re still treated as having the same status as a part time cross-dresser when he’s cross-dressed.

    The denial and the non-acceptance is bizarre and if Zoe Brain’s determination to practice her brutalising ignorance earns her (and others)the label of fundamentalists, its no more than they deserve.

    They follow a different route to the same conclusions ignorant pricks like John Randal and (in)Justice Ormrod arrived at.

    But at least Randall and Ormrod were honest bigots. Zoe and her trans ideological trans friends are dishonest. They practice an ersatz liberalism that camouflages their denial by re constructing our hard won female anatomies as a mere alteration in gender role performance.

    If Zoe and her cohorts have their way they will perpetrate the same fundamentalist denial on intersex people as well.

    Personally, for their tunnel vision and their stupid, thick as pig sh*t, refusal to admit the reality under their own noses, I despise them.

  65. Zoe Brain says:

    Joanne – please could you tell me how you came to those conclusions about what I’m saying. Because you’re about 180 degrees away from the way I see things.

    Trans women are women. They’ve been female since about week 26 after conception. That’s regardless of their appearance. And they differ from transgendered men. The difficulties arise in those people to whom the labels “male” and “female” are problematic. They’re a minority of Intersexed and Transgendered people, but they exist too.

    There’s so much I don’t understand, lacking the data to make more than flying guesses. For that matter, I have no idea why genital reconstruction to a female norm was – not so much important or even essential, but just a plain given for me. Unthinkable not to. Why? Logically, it shouldn’t matter. Appearances are just that, superficialities. Many Intersexed women are quite happy with genitalia far more masculinised than mine ever was. In theory, I could have just had an orchidectomy and re-plumbing of the urethra to restore function, no need for a complete reconstruction with a neovagina.

    I just couldn’t imagine not having it though. When faced with the difficulty of being unable to get documentation to re-enter the country after surgery, my thoughts immediately turned to how to re-enter illegally, rather than cancelling or even postponing the date.

    But that’s me, and no-one should universalise their own experience and force that interpretation on others narratives.

  66. Leigh says:

    Typical transgender GLBT hate speech accusations. I never said one damn thing that could be considered hateful unless you consider speaking the truth as hateful.

    Here is an example of a hateful sentence just so you know the difference. “All fagots should be imprisoned for being freaks of nature” .. now THAT is an example of hate speach you stupid cow. Grow the fuck up!

    I have no interest in reading your blogs since you have already shown yourself to be a liar and a fake. You came here, a wolf in sheeps clothing (is that crossdressing or what?), and you were given every opportunity to state your case. Nobody has censored you, nobody has banned you. How long do you think It would be before one of us were censored and banned for expressing our views at your pink essence website ? Not that I am going to try but I will bet that I would be banned inside of one day.

    You accuse me of denying the tg their human rights, I do not. That I will not acknowledge them legitimacy as transsexuals does not in any way deny them a human right. On the other hand, that they continue to subvert the legitimacy of those born with transsexualism by infering that transgender lifestyle choices are the same thing as a transsexuals need to correct a legitimate medical condition, denies OUR human right to obtain surgical correction. The DSM is being re-written all the time in favor of the non surgical transgenders view that genital correction is not necessary for transsexuals. By weight of overwhelming numbers, their narrative is replacing the need for genuine classic transsexuals to obtain surgical correction. It has not happened yet, but the impetus is being put in place for banning SRS under the guise that it is nothing more than mutilation of healthy tissues.

    You have been exposed as a liar Anne. If you want to say that is hate speech then have at it. You just as well take your leave here because your dog just wont hunt. There is no “WE” as you keep implying, unless you have a mouse in your pocket.

    You have lied about the reason you placed bilerico content here. If you want to (as you said) “discuss it”, then all you need to do is discuss it at bilerico. Its a blog too and I am very sure they would be most open to your TG sympathies.

    Better still, why don’t you go discuss it at zoe brains website? Zoe will be more than happy to accomodate you. Zoe brain is after all a medical miracle, having changed sex spontaneously! I can’t wait for the book to hit the shelves. Yes this is the same Zoe that not long ago, before she became professor emeritus of the internet psychological intersexed and all things transsexual, school of know all’s complete with a world renowned ego, was entering an elevator one day in a hospital where a friend of mine was recovering SRS and greeted said friend of whom zoe had no aquaintence, with the time honored words of “How’s your pussy” !

    Yes I am sure zoe .. or as we like to refer to her, “huggy”, since the photoshoped photo’s of her apparently bear little resemblence to the actual person, would like nothing better than to continue this diatribe with you over there. I mean, as your ol’ man said, why waste your time arguing with a bunch of hateful old trannies like us when you could be scoring points for humanity over at huggies place? It would also save zoe the trouble of coming here where she would like nothing better than to fill the void left by susan and aria ..

    Goodbye, farewell and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out

  67. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Ciao, dude!

  68. Leigh says:

    Thats the problem .. you DO wannabe me!

  69. joanne says:

    Another troll bites the dust 😉

    Zoe wrote:
    Trans women are women. They’ve been female since about week 26 after conception. That’s regardless of their appearance.

    Well actually Zoe – we haven’t been female, that’s why we experience the dissonance. Our brains may be wired (organisation-actvation) to function within a female biological context, but that context is not what we experience.

    I think if you weren’t so reliant on gender theory you would be less prone to conflate being a ‘woman’ with being a female.

    Try this. Girls are immature females. Adolescent females are in a state of transition from immaturity to maturity. Women are mature, post adolescent females.

    The transition that takes place is recognizable – from girl > adolescent > woman.

    With rare exceptions female remains constant.

    You wrote:

    I have no idea why genital reconstruction to a female norm was – not so much important or even essential, but just a plain given for me.

    My analysis is that you were experiencing the difference between being a socially constructed woman and the personal, internal experience of not being female. The later is (or at least is capable of being) a totally separate experience from the former.

    Its a concept that was beyond Anne. It should not be beyond you. But you need to abandon or at least stop being so damned dependent on gender theory and the identity paradigm to get it.

  70. Zoe Brain says:

    The photos aren’t photoshopped. Maybe I should get some recent pictures taken. Still, why? You wouldn’t believe anything anyway.

    The only hospital with an elevator I’ve been in where SRS is performed is Aikchol, November 2006. Though I may have done some visiting in July(?) 2007, when I had revision surgery at the Suporn Clinic.

    I think you must be confusing me with someone else with the feline remark. Or your informant is.

  71. Sibyl says:

    Well Zoë, since you seem to want to go there, Leigh does in fact have the correct story, but the details are a bit off. This pathetic incident occurred on the lift of the Mercure Hotel not the Aikchol Hospital. As for the rest, well, here are the details exactly as they happened.

    I was a guest of the Mercure Hotel, I wished to leave the floor so I pushed the button for the lift. The lift arrived and I got on. Aboard this car was someone I’d never met in person, yet knew all too well from the hundreds upon hundreds of increasingly bizarre forum posting they’d made. Knowing that you were there and because of all the utter nonsense you have written Zoë I was I studiously avoided you, along with a several others there like you who frankly, scare the ever-loving bejezzers out of me.

    Anyway, back to the story, The doors to the lift closes. You, Zoë, turn to me, and without so much as a “what floor?” or, “Hello, I’m _____, nice weather isn’t it?” asked how my vagina was! The exact wording I believe, “how did your vagina turn out?”

    Excuse ME? Did this total stranger just inquire about my vagina? Did I miss something about which topics are proper to inquire about with women one knows well much less total strangers? Or is this how all “Rocket Scientists” speak? Saddle up to random women and ask them as to the condition of their vaginas?

    Must play hell on ones social life!

    I of course said absolutely nothing in reply. I find it very difficult to speak with my jaw on the floor. Besides, this was the singular most rude question ever asked of me either before or since and merited no reply. So I did what a proper women does in such a situation. I remained stone cold silent refused to look at you, reached over, pushed the button for the next floor and got off. From that moment onward Zoë, I have avoided you like the plague you are!

    Let’s keep it that way shall we?

  72. Sibyl says:

    PS… My vagina is perfectly fine. Thank you for asking!

  73. anoldfriend says:

    Sibyl;
    There were a lot of that type there when I was there nearly a decade ago. Nothing has changed, I have also heard the same from other woman who have gone there and gone to other GRS specialists.
    You know right off the bat those “woman” are not women at all but men with a fetish.

    There were 3 of us who paled around and avoided the rest because of their male behavior.

    We spent as little time at the clinic, which seemed to be where those types liked to hang our. We even belonged to the yahoo group that carried the good doctor’s name, I was the last to leave 4 years ago and yes Zoe was there in that group spreading her Tee-Gee dogma to anyone who would listen. I got fed up with the group,

    A year later a friend was thrown off for protesting the Tee-Gee crap.

    just a bunch of men looking to realize their ultimate fetish fantasy.

    That Yahoo group is poison.
    It’s a good thing the vast majority of Dr S’s patients never needed to go back for revision surgery, I know I couldn’t deal with those people.

  74. Zoe Brain says:

    Sibyl – could you give me a date there? Because I have zero recollection of any such event happening. .

    Perhaps you’re confusing me with someone else. Seriously. Perhaps you could say what I was wearing? Or remark on my accent?

    No-one has ever had that reaction to me either, I think it’s something I would have remembered.

    I don’t know whether it’s mistaken identity, a fault in your memory, or an over-active imagination. But such an event did not happen as you describe it.

    I can easily imagine myself committing any number of faux-pas, and forgetting all about them. But it’s not the kind of thing I’d say. I mean, how would I know that you were a patient? And if I did, I’d ask how “the surgery” went.

  75. Zoe Brain says:

    Though as we hadn’t met, I wouldn’t even ask that.

    Sorry, I’m utterly confused and at a loss.

  76. Sibyl says:

    It wasn’t you Zoe? Odd… I pulled this picture of from you blog and you seem exactly as I remember!

    http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/09/diamond-in-hawaii.html

    About five foot something tall and seeming as broad. Thick body, no breasts to speak of (fat doesn’t count), broad shoulders, haggard and worn face with a prominent brow ridge and eyebrows so far past a needed plucking they bordered upon Cro-Magnon. Huge ears, made to appear even larger by the unruly and unkempt too long, dark hair with split ends pulled behind them. Lastly the whole enchanting package topped off by another of those masculine and unbecoming baggy tee shirts you so seem to favor

    Nope, Zoë that was indeed you on the lift that dark day we met and what transpired was exactly as said even if you’ve since gotten selective amnesia.

    Perhaps I should remind you of other events that transpired in the hopes of jogging your memory…

    What about a detailed description of how upset you were in making your good-byes at the clinic because you had to leave this Thai TG wonderland? (I had been studiously avoiding the clinic but had to be there that day for a check up) Want me to describe how you babbled on and on as you stood in front of that decorative piece between the counter and the hallway to have souvenir pictures taken with all various and sundry staff members you could grab? Being short on time you didn’t grab many.

    Perhaps I should remind you how all over the place you were in Thailand. Yet another Queen of the fricking May at the Suporn Clinic and Mercure Hotel. Getting your picture taken hither and yon by, and with, one and all, (don’t bother to look you will not find me in any of them as I removed myself from the vicinity when cameras came out.) Expounding at great length and in ever so excruciating detail to anyone and everyone of European decent you could pigeon hole (what better pigeon hole than the lift) about all things related to sex change surgery and the trials and tribulations of the TG life?

    But in all fairness I will give you this Zoë You were not the only one doing so. So were all the other TG just like you. It’s seemingly de rigueur behavior for TG minons of the Suporn Clinic. Cluster together into tight littlr packs and talk the subject of transgender issues to death.

    All I can assume is, when I stepped into the lift that day being a tall woman and not in the company of a brave husband in the midst of becoming a woman. I was, correctly, taken as another patient of the good doctor. So my guess is, with one look you assumed if I was a patient then I was also fair game for having an impromptu conversation about the condition of my vagina! Why not, you had them with everyone else in the place!

    Still don’t remember?

    Why am I not surprised. Few men I’ve encountered are aware when an insulted woman turns on the cold and quickly takes her leave unless she feels the need to point it out. Particularly when the man in question is far too busy having the time of their life!

  77. Leigh says:

    OH!!!!

    THATS GOTTA HURT !

  78. anoldfriend says:

    Maybe it’s time for ZB to fess up and be honest with herself and the rest of the world.

  79. Nicky says:

    OUCH!!!!!, That’s gotta HURT.

    I have to agree with anoldfriend and Sibyl that it is time for Zoe Brain to fess up and come clean that Zoe is lying about her intersex status and should come clean and be totally honest. The evidence is mounting and if anyone wants to find the evidence, Google Zoe Brain’s name and look at all the postings that Zoe leaves behind.