Object lesson

Two items for today that seemed important- at Trans Fried Fluff Joanne digs up an interesting definition of transsexualism from the past and I also think the death of Mike Penner deserves comment.

Fluff is a blog about the DSM rewrite mainly, and profiles a lot of the characters involved there. It is also highly critical of the utter lack of response among so-called professionals who patently ignore the thoroughly repudiated “gender” paradigm.

Most of us familiar with this topic are aware of Harry Benjamin’s contributions, but far less have probably heard of Jan Wålinder. He provides us with what Joanne calls “one of the most accurate descriptions of classical transsexualism yet devised”. I agree with her, and I’ll just quote from the article to illustrate:

1. A sense of belonging to the opposite sex, of having been born into the wrong sex, of being one of nature’s extant errors.

2. A sense of estrangement with one’s own body; all indications of sex differentiation are considered as afflictions and repugnant.

3. A strong desire to resemble physically the opposite sex via therapy including surgery.

4. A desire to be accepted in the community as belonging to the opposite sex.

It’s difficult to be more clear than that. Continuing my habit of posting my comments to other blogs on my own, I replied with this:

When the fad finally disappears, I shudder to think of all the stories of “de-transition” that will ensue among the transvestites.  Such fodder for the Blanchards and others who want to pretend real transsexualism doesn’t exist!

With any luck the shame of crossdressing that these people feel will mute most of the uproar among the “TG community” and the former “transsexuals” will quietly go about their lives and simply stop speaking of it.

A few outliers may try to sell their story but the mood in the US at least is changing and sensationalist stories like that won’t get as much play here, shortly, or have the same kind of impact as they once would have.  That’s the best case scenario for all involved anyway.

And that’s the most important reason I and others have opposed the spate of surgical approval for non-transsexual “transgenders” and other co-option of our birth condition; in the end it will be we who pay for their giant sex party.  How utterly selfish of them to impose such a burden.

Perhaps it is merely a lack of character that pushes a transvestite into claiming to be transsexual. But that lack of character among those who profess to care for our ‘mental health’ is what allows this sort of nonsense in the first place.  At this point it is impossible to assign their motives to ignorance, and the clear activity of these people mentioned in this article is arguably malicious.

The DSM V, if all goes as it seems, will be used as an object lesson by future psychiatrists of how not to practice.  That is if the profession survives the next few decades at all.

Which leads me to Mike Penner. People who were not born with the transsexual condition will not grasp the truth of what happened, and people in general will learn the wrong lessons from what happened to him.

I believe transgender dogma contributed to the suicide of Mike Penner. Now why would I say something so awful? For a true transsexual, the advice given by the TG “community” is a death sentence. This is another one of those things that they will never understand about this condition. Using the gay paradigm to “treat” the transsexual condition is a recipe for disaster. This business about “coming out”, being “honest”, living “openly”, and all the rest of the rubbish is a death sentence for a woman. Part of being born transsexual is the truth that we are women and men whose bodies are horribly deformed. We treat it as best we can, and live our lives. To be constantly reminded of our deformity for the rest of our lives is no life at all.

Mike’s public transition was no transition at all. This is the object lesson that witnessing a “transgender” type of “transition” imparts to a true transsexual. The idea of living “as a woman” while everyone knows you are a man may be titillating to the transvestites and full time drag queens who comprise the TG “community”, but it is absolutely the wrong thing for one born transsexual. I have to wonder how the few transsexual men and women in the TG ranks deal with this attitude among their chosen peers.

In the end I think Mike’s form of transition was what killed him. If I accept that he was a true transsexual, then I know what he felt. We shared this much in common; it is unacceptable to go through life with the stigma of being a man. Having a very public job and very public transition made it impossible for Mike to truly get treatment, to reach that place where his birth defect was finally healed. He felt his cure would always be out of reach. Transgender dogma told him that he needed to “come out” and bask in the glow of acceptance. By all accounts he received that acceptance- as a brave man who was pretending to be a woman. And facing that reality, he thought it better to leave this world than endure it any longer.

That’s what killed Mike Penner.

Advertisements

127 Responses to Object lesson

  1. At Pam’s House Blend, Sandeen has managed to make it All About Her, turning it into quite a weep and hug fest.

    At Bilerico, newly-ordained ‘columnist’ Dyssonance hammers it hard with another rambling sort of non-rally cry.

    The ‘two out of three suicide attempts’ quote applies directly to high-intensity transsexuals.

    Not transgenders who have no desire whatsoever to lose their penis. Because no man wants to lose their penis, there’s nothing to fall that far into deep despair over.

    There’s no mind-body disconnect. Just a wardrobe one.

    Now watch the parade of transgenders and transvestites quote statistics that don’t even apply to them, while riding the coffin of a presumed transsexual in the process, in an attempt to force their acceptance down society’s throat.

    And watch us stand and resist being forcibly dragged into their ghetto.

  2. joanne says:

    Hi Aria, ATG 🙂

    When I wrote that guest piece for TFF Sandeen and Dys were two of the individuals who immediately came mind. They, along with many others are utterly incapable, almost to the point of dependency, on WPATH and the DSM’s.

    They wave these tomes about as if they were eternal truths handed down from on high on tablets of stone. They complain about Zucker and Blanchard’s influence on the DSM-V rewrite when, in reality they are, themselves, little more that products of those individuals in the first place.

    IMHO relying on WPATH or the DSM as proof-positive of the validity of transgenderism is exactly the same as relying on a message from the Vatican as proof that Catholicism is the ‘truth’.

    It only works as an act of blind faith!

  3. Zoë Suzanna says:

    I can understand how you came up with the notion about the transgender dogma killing Mike. At the support group I had been attending, that dogma is ever flourishing. One of the facilitators loves to brag about her transition and dresses in a skimpy whorish manner and seems to imply the way she dresses is the way transsexuals dress and since I don’t mimic the ways she dresses, I am somehow inferior.

    I’ve often question the need for such a “support” group, if you can call it that. I find most of them the most narcissistic and self center people I have ever met. As humans, I would not want to, nor do I socialize with them. They as a a group of ‘TG’ think I should automatically want to be friends with them. Far from it.

    I also realized about the same time that I do not want to identify with any type of “trans” label and to say such things around that “support” group is almost hearsay.

    Blah blah blah – forgive my rambling.

  4. Zoe Brain says:

    Something I wrote on a support forum:
    —-
    NJ wrote on Thu, 03 December 2009 04:48
    I didn’t “want to be a girl” – I was a girl
    —-

    Exactly.

    I rather wanted to be a boy. I just wasn’t one. Goodness knows, I tried to be.

    When I was young, girls could not be astronauts, or engineers, or do interesting things. That was important to me – an essential part. The external stuff, meh, who cares what your body looks like? Sex was for having babies, messy and undignified, nice to please others, but not something I wanted.

    It wasn’t till after transition that I realised just how well femininity fitted me. All the things I’d read without comprehension, about “feeling comfortable with your body”, about how anyone could possibly be upset by losing a limb, about feeling physical, or sexy, in touch with your body, suddenly made sense.

    And the company of girlfriends became even better, I’m no longer an auxiliary, there is no distance any more. Gosh, if the guys only knew how we conspire together to manipulate them! And feel unashamed (mainly) because we still get the rough end of the stick when it comes to promotions, and pay.

    Look, the key to a successful transition for me anyway was not to deny my past medical history, just treat it with the disrespect it deserves. OK, I’m Trans (actually Intersexed, so what). Or was Trans. Or whatever. And yes, I associate, at least online, with other Trans women. Why? To help. But also because they’re really nice human beings.

    I don’t *just* associate with them though, or even mainly. They’re a part of my life, the way that an Australian from a Thai background has connections to Thailand, yet mainly interacts with other Australians. I’m just a woman with an unusual background. Just as some of my friends are cancer survivors, or survivors of spousal abuse, or refugees, or olympic athletes.

    The thing is, you don’t have to try. This will all come naturally, if you just let go. By all means keep your trans connections, just don’t make them the only part of your life.
    ====

    How well does my narrative fit with the Jan Wålinder model?

    1. Perfect Match. 100%

    2. Very close. 90-something percent. It’s difficult determining this – I didn’t feel as if the external stuff was a “deformity” so much as just inappropriate. The feelings were probably stronger than it seems in hindsight, as I made attempts to auto-castrate when puberty started.

    3. After starting transition, overwhelming. Before – not so much. Possibly psychological denial, I *knew* it was impossible, so didn’t want to torture myself. I knew at age 10 that with my build, I’d never look good. And I *didn’t* want to “resemble” the “opposite sex”. I already “resembled” the “opposite sex”, I looked like a guy, and I hated it.

    4. I am, and I like that. It feels like I’ve come home at last. But I didn’t expect to be accepted before transition, I had to do it anyway. I guess that it was only after I’d experienced it that I realised that that was what I was born for.

    In summary, I’m not sure where the dividing line is. If you know, absolutely, that a desire is completely impossible, and that desire is so overwhelming that you can’t live if it’s unfulfilled, what do you do? Deny that you want it. Or die.

    Whatever. That’s in the past now. Irrelevant to my life. The only reason to try picking off the scabs is to help others, and learn more about the issue. I think… I’d rather not. Selfish I know, but something is telling me I’d best not go there, lest I disturb a now dead misery so intense that even the memory of it would do me harm.

    I’m more comfortable believing that I was less troubled by it than most. Because the alternative is unthinkable.

  5. Aria Blue says:

    Really, Zoe #2, I don’t care if you are the real deal or not, or about your search for personal affirmation through all the questionable scientific-sounding prose you’ve been spreading around the net for years now.

    The problem you bring to these discussions is that regardless of who you really are, you push the transgender dogma so hard it comes out of science’s nose.

    Transgender is a lie, and it has no place in science.

  6. joanne says:

    Wow! – all these Zoë’s 🙂

    Zoë Suzanna Said:
    One of the facilitators loves to brag about her transition and dresses in a skimpy whorish manner and seems to imply the way she dresses is the way transsexuals dress and since I don’t mimic the ways she dresses, I am somehow inferior.

    Hi Zoë Suzanna 🙂
    More years ago than I care to remember I was invited to attend a transvestites group in Christchurch, New Zealand. I went along a couple of times. I swear I could have cut the sexual tension with a knife.

    There were a dozen or so TV’s there. Four had their wives along. The first time I went I turned up in jeans and a sweat shirt. Several TV’s kindly offered to loan me clothes so I could ‘dress’. I pointed out that I already was. I ended up sitting out in the kitchen, chatting with wives.

    I only went back the second time because I made friends with one of them. The TV’s thought I was being snobby. I wasn’t: I just didn’t ‘get’ their turn-on. I still don’t.

    Zoë Brain
    LOL. Its interesting to see the way different people use definitions. I just see Wålinder’s definition as an holistic understanding. To me it contains all the ingredients of T/S-ism.

    I guess different people will have different experiences within the definition. But all the ingredients are a necessary part of the whole. I think that it was abandoned because it was ‘cherry-picked’ by various TG identified individuals who were allowed to exploit different aspects of it to their own ends.

    Its very hard not to feel angry about that at times. For example when ‘transsexuals who don’t want to change sex’ claim speaking rights without having ever experienced the confusion and distress that accompanies the sensations.

  7. i’ve been reading Zoe Suzanna’s site for awhile, along with a few others not directly involved in the TG / TS debate.

    It’s interesting to see something in a stranger online, and then watch to see what direction they end up going on certain topics.

    i really need to update my link list.

  8. catkisser says:

    Back in the day there was a mixed support group “wisdom” that went like this:
    The fetishists are the ones in the ball gowns
    The transgenders are the ones dressed twenty years out of date (dresses and skirts) with too much jewelry.
    The transsexuals are the ones in jeans and Tee tops
    The wives are the ones in jeans and Tee tops without any jewelry…….

    Over the years the internal truth in this became apparent to me.

  9. joanne says:

    Hi Catkisser – ROFL

    The leader of the TV group I was referring to was a Dutch guy who insisted that he’d been Marie Antoinette in a past life.

    I wondered how may Marie Antoinette’s there had been.
    Then I pointed out that Marie Antoinette had came to a sticky end. It was a double entendre. Marie Antoinette’s gown was covered in strange looking stains.

    I don’t think he ‘got the joke

  10. cassandraspeaks says:

    Aria, you always write with such insight! You are one smart young lady.

    I have come across a great many Mike Penner’s in my time; I have no idea how many ended up topping themselves (to use an English phrase) I can point to only one I knew personally. Though I have heard of many more.

    These tragic suicides are the dramatic manifestation of of a less obvious tendency among many transgender and some transsexuals. The “slow suicide” where a lifestyle and personal habits are designed to end a life early. Sometimes with substance abuse sometimes with sex work but perhaps most often with the very “out” lifestyle so many choose. The accompanying stress trauma causes strokes and heart failure as well as obesity. These are issues that are facts of some lives and life choice that are rarely taken into consideration. They are certainly not statistics that are recorded.

  11. Leigh says:

    more spam riley

  12. Aria Blue says:

    Why wouldn’t you honor this person’s wishes, not to mention how he lived his life? He chose to be known as Mike, why is that not respected by transgender activists? This seems like a double standard if there is no explanation forthcoming.

  13. cassandraspeaks says:

    Mike Penner died calling himself Mike Penner – I simply reflect his wishes why can’t you?

  14. Aria Blue says:

    I know you’ve had a rough life Christine, and I’d rather not pile on so I’ll take it easy here. I’ll just say I don’t “disavow” the transgender community, because they have no a priori claim on my birth condition. Only the dogma makes it so.

    I don’t say these things to prop myself up; I’m not the sort of person who needs that sort of false ego trip. I say them because they are true. I attack no one, only the false ideology that I believe to be destructive to people’s lives.

    It’s unfortunate that Mike Penner went 52 years without transition, and if he was a real transsexual-born person it must have been hell. To answer your question: Yes. If you really face the transsexual situation, you sacrifice everything to heal yourself if it is necessary. Everything. After all, didn’t you do that?

    I don’t think it’s too much to ask that transgender politicians stop speaking on a topic they know nothing about. It’s not to much to ask that they speak the truth. If they do not want to be called liars and demagogues, all they have to do is stop. It’s on them.

  15. cassandraspeaks says:

    Naaaaa! The transgender community reviles itself without any help from us. I’ve seen your videos Christine Beatty and your website. You think you’re a fine example of what it is to transition do you? No I don’t need to make capital out of Mike Penner you or any other transgender. Christine Daniels/ Mike Penner whatever; it was a senseless and tragic death. I feel compassion and regret that it worked out that way. We merely observe that for us that level of publicity and public profile is not acceptable. Neither is your style of parading yourself in front of a camera in your underwear telling the world how beautiful you are acceptable.

    No one here thinks it’s anything but tragic and a sad day when something like this happens and our hearts go out to his family. But the simple facts are that the style of “transition” Christine or Mike whichever you prefer is about as tough as it gets.

    Just remember you and Christine daniels are not the only ones who had it tough!

  16. joanne says:

    Now – just to play devil’s advocate to this conversation, you all seem to imputing a lot of baggage here: much of it, I suspect, your own.

    1. Its just possible that this individual discovered as a part of his own self testing, that he wasn’t what he thought he was. It wouldn’t be the first time, it most surely won’t be the last! If that were so he had the courage to recognize his mistake. Maybe he couldn’t deal with the consequences?

    2. It is not unknown for males, caught up in a personal crisis and feeling their lives spiraling out of control, to attempt gender role transition or worse. In some cases the action can be interpreted as a form of personality suicide. That is the very reason why the DSM-IV contains a caveat against a GID diagnosis in such circumstances.

    As a matter of interest one of the charges directed against British psychiatrist, Russel Reid, was that he recommended SRS in just such a case. Once the individual concerned had recovered his equilibrium he seriously regretted the surgery. But it should not have been available to him in the first place.

    Not one of us knows what Penner was experiencing. His marriage was in tatters. His personal life was in tatters. It would be nice to draw whatever personal lessons each feels they have to learn and let the matter rest.

  17. cassandraspeaks says:

    Your anger has little effect on me Christine Beatty. Your envy and your jealousy nor your pathetic attempt to diminish me. You have no ammunition with which to touch me. It is I who pity you.

  18. Aria Blue says:

    Well I suppose it’s par for the course when dealing with people in genderland, but I’ll reiterate.

    Neither I nor the other women here kowtow to demands made by militant transgenders. You do not set the agenda, and you do not make demands Christine. That is exactly the sort of offensive behavior we have been talking about.

    Transgenders do not own transsexual. Those of us who were born with the condition have simply had enough of the fakes and the phonies pretending to be us. Is it that hard to understand?

    I will not accept a man in a dress speaking for me. And there are plenty of those among the transgenders- the incidence of real transsexuals in your group is vanishingly small, and they don’t stay long.

    There is only one kind of “transsexuality”, and it is a birth condition, not a chosen behavior. That is the greatest and most damaging lie perpetuated by the whole nasty TG business. The TG say that all you have to do to be transsexual is act a certain way. dress a certain way, and express a vaque desire for surgery. This is a horrible, damning lie that hurts anyone it touches. And yes, it is more than likely this very thing played a part in Mike Penner’s suicide.

    If the TG can be honest and admit that much, it would go a long way to mending fences with us and the other men and women born with the transsexual condition. Until then, neither you nor any other TG activist has the moral standing to even speak to us on this topic, much less lecture us on who is a man or woman. It’s not as if the TG have a firm grasp on that subject, given the kinds of ridiculous things I’ve read from them.

    It is this sort of abuse from the TG’s that has been their downfall, and the public doesn’t like what it sees in you. That’s not my fault. It’s all your own doing.

  19. anoldfriend says:

    “”I just love the willingness of “classic” transsexuals to tell other people how to live their lives. You’re as fanatical about your beliefs as those you rail against. You’re like a Transsexual Taliban, ready to condemn all who don’t accept your One True Transsexuality. Hmmm, I like that — “Transsexual Taliban.” I’ll have to do a column on that.””
    That’s the Christine I remember from Alt.support.srs
    You haven’t changed much, still name calling I see.
    How dare you lump us in with terrorists for acknowledging Mike’s wishes. You are a classic example of what is for the most part wrong with the Tee-Gee community.

    And yes Christine we are better than you; only because we make a conscious effort to be the best people we can.

    Have a nice life, if you will let yourself.

  20. anoldfriend says:

    “”P.S. Oh, and “old friend” (AKA Jennifer Usher) send my love to all your friends at alt.retort.srs. I’m sure you still go there.””
    Wrong dear I am not Jen, I have known her for nearly fifteen years.

    You ask why there were so few on that petition? I can tell you, we live our lives in the greater society not in a gay ghetto with people who don’t accept us or think we are nuts for wanting to rearrange our genitals. We are what I have said we are, the very best people we can be, we strive for that goal. We don’t sit around and feel sorry for ourselves or write blog posts about how abused we feel. We made our way in society and went along to get along because we are women, not women with a qualifier (trans-woman for example).

  21. Stephanie says:

    I came across a phrase recently which perfectly encapsulates the transgender attitude towards Mike Penner’s suicide – “Heroic Victimology”.

  22. catkisser says:

    you know, it’s hard not to see yourself as “more of a woman” than say a professional transsexual. Just saying.

  23. anoldfriend says:

    Cat;
    You have only said what I have always thought.

    The path of resistance is always to blend into the mainstream, not evangelize one’s strangeness.

  24. anoldfriend says:

    The above should read The path of Least resistance is always to blend into the mainstream not evangelize one’s strangeness.

  25. Jessica says:

    The death of Mike Penner was, for me, one of those days when I felt a deep sadness for someone I’ve never known, not as a person like my neighbours, but, in many ways, deeper than I’ve known anyone other than myself.

    I began my transition about the same age as Mike, but well away from the kind of kleig lights he had to endure.

    I would never have thought his death might have been the result of accepting “transgender wisdom.” Coming out as he did certainly is not the traditional advice given to transsexual women, who were once told, as I understand it, divorce your wife, leave the place where you have support, some friends, familiarity, and go to an unfamiliar place, make up a lie to tell people, and go alone and unsupported and in stealth into the world.

    While I actually fantasied, once or twice, on that–it seems to me now a horror I could never, ever do.

    The “object lesson” you write of is something that makes me shudder.

    One of the themes in the theory you so effectively promulgate is that, on the surface at least, appearances can be deceiving. And that some of those who appear transsexual are something else, though for the general public, and some professional audiences, their existence and musings determine these audiences’ views of transsexual people–especially transsexual women.

    I shudder because, if the thought just under the surface of your piece is correct, then this “discourse” promulgated by transgender people becomes the basis of what Mike Penner did in what was clearly a difficult time in his life.

    I shudder because, if this is correct, what was the value of his professional help? As mentioned above, one of the criticisms of a British doctor was that he allowed something similar to happen.

    You write: “Transgender dogma told him that he needed to “come out” and bask in the glow of acceptance. By all accounts he received that acceptance- as a brave man who was pretending to be a woman.”

    Yet there remains a contradiction which I’ve pointed to before. To live stealth, as seems to be the “object lesson” here, will not bring about any of the changes many transsexual women and men seek.

    While I sometimes think those in my classes and at work–where I have disclosed–think of me “as a brave man who was pretending to be a woman” I’m not sure how to struggle for the goals I believe in WITHOUT disclosing.

    I do not, however, think this much of the time; for the most part, I live in the world as the person I have always been, but only since I was 50 was able to begin to realize.

    This is a contradiction. When I manage things right, it is a creative struggle. When not, its pure hell!

  26. Aria Blue says:

    The question you have to ask yourself is a simple one, I think. Do I want to change the world, or do I want to be a woman?

    The goal of being a woman *by* changing the world simply isn’t realistic. It ends up being a fight with the majority about who THEY are, and that is fight you will never win. In its most strident form, the argument is blatantly insulting to the majority, which is purely counterproductive.

    I believe, further, that the two goals are incompatible. You can’t be one with the larger body of women by setting yourself aside as a new form of woman, or expanding it to include non-women. If you want to be a woman, simply be. There is nothing to be gained by “educating” people about the condition. People know everything they need to know about you by using their eyes and ears. You can’t convince them to ignore their senses in favor of some idealized philosophy of life.

    “Stealth” is not only an insult to women like us, it is also a mischaracterization. There is nothing more to who we are than what people see. There is no great secret, no shameful past. The reason we don’t speak of the past to strangers is not because we are misleading them, as the transgender charge. It is because to do so would be to perpetrate a lie. I am the person they see before them, and I don’t expect, or demand, that they expand their mind to accommodate me.

    I can’t stress enough how important it is for women to just be women once they have achieved correction. Not women with a past, not women with an asterisk. Just be who you are. It is all but impossible to do this if you wear 50 years of baggage around your neck. You have to make as clean a break for your own mental and emotional growth as a woman, or all you end up doing is continuing to live that half-life that we all want to leave behind.

    Some people have lingering responsibilities and loose ends to tie; these are things to handle, not excuses for staying tied to the past. If you don’t shed the useless garbage, the things that are not compatible with womanhood, there is no way you will reach your goal. It is not simply one path among many, as the transgender would have us believe. It is the only way to realize your cure and live a healthy life.

    We are our bodies, and we are our experiences. Make peace with the past and leave it there. It’s that simple.

  27. Jessica says:

    I suppose it is different for those who transition before 30, or even before 20.

    The harshest and most callous assessment I ever heard regarding the “failure” of those who transition later–i. e. me–was from a young transsexual woman while we were both healing in the convalescent house connected to Brassard’s Montreal clinic. And I found myself in general agreement with virtually everything else she spoke of.

    Yours is somewhat less harsh, though no less callous.

    Yes, “we are our bodies, and we are our experiences.”

    But I do not believe its as simple as you suggest.

    I believe that 30 years–something I suspect you do not yet understand, though when you are here you will declare it, differently–is something that cannot simply be thrown away.

    Making peace is not as short term as you seem to suggest. The more I reflect on this history, the less I believe my path is anything like yours, or hers.

    I am greatly saddened by this divergence.

  28. joanne says:

    It could hardly be stated with more clarity. But I think the problem here is that TG dogma isn’t actually about being female and women, or male and men.

    Its more about being theoretical stereotypes of transsexualism. Most TG’s, it seems to me, are desperately trying to become something we never were. They are trying to act out a role that we never aspired to: a transitional state that we aspire to leave behind.

    Its written in the raft of identities they adopt. Who among those women who contribute to this (and other discussions) ever considered ourselves as the products of a transsexual or a transgender identity?

    Our experience was a clash between our internal femaleness (or maleness)and our biological and social function – just like Jan Wålinder described it.

    Those things can’t be separated like Zoe tried to do. They’re not a bit of one and a part of the other. To the extent that classical transsexualism is an identity issue at all (Which I suspect in a causal sense isn’t much) then we are simply women or men.

    In part, psychologists and psychotherapists invented all those other ‘mutant identities’ to suite their own constructions. Thank them for the so-called ‘transsexual identity’. All anybody with the condition wants is to leave that B/S behind and have a life.

    Transgenderism doesn’t explain a naturally occurring state. It constructs an improbable explanation for a set of marginal social presentations and behaviors.

    Perhaps that is why more and more people are seeing through it and the gender babble that goes along with it.

  29. Sibyl says:

    Jessica you wrote above of the “Traditional Advice” given to transsexuals and said it’s something you cannot do? Why not might I ask? It was sound advice then and its sound advice now for a successful transition

    Divorce your wife?
    Please! Take all this now as antagonism but an honest questions, Jessica, are you a man, or a woman? If you are a man, then this is not and issue and you can have yourself a wife. That was after all the premise you married her under right? That you were the man,she was the woman and so you were the husband and she the wife as you still refer to her? If you are not a man, then its pretty simple you cannot be married to a woman! You will have to divorce!

    Leave the place where you, as you put it, have support?
    The reason you would WANT to stay where everyone knows your history and, as you put it sees you as a man is WHAT? Did I miss something here? You call this support? Of what?

    Friends?
    Again if they knew you at all from the before time(or the early new times too) then they were friends with a man. You are not a man are you? Then they have to go! I know this seems harsh at the moment but its like ripping off a Band-Aid. Hurts like hell if you do it slow. This also ties into the above… You are including your before friends in as your “support?

    Support of your being a harmless man who has this odd thing of pretending to be a woman? That is not now and never will be any sort of support. The problem that you are missing is the knowledge of your past is utterly and totally toxic and it will color any relationship it touches black before it withers and dies. It may not seem it at the moment but ask anyone here and they will confirm the same thing

    Familiarity?
    With what? How can be where you tried to live as a man and not look around and see anything else but all the things you did, as a man? If there is familiarity then there is connection and that for you is utterly and totally toxic!

    Go to an unfamiliar place?
    What pray tell is so bad about being some were new? You are new. You are trying to bloom so then it is time for you to get transplanted and set into the sun so you can become all you can be… Its not something you can ever hope to do when others know you as you were!

    Ahh now this question is the one where it gets to the meat of the issue!

    Make up a lie?
    What lie? That I was, am and always will be female? And the lie there would be what? That out of the way I can honestly say I never lie about my past to anyone! Why should I? There is nothing to lie about. I was and still am female right? And my mother taught me discretion and I put the knowledge to good use!

    For example I grew up in ____ town. I lived for a time on a farm. My father did____ my mother ____ I had one sister____. I went to _______ high school, It was a bitter experience, one that I would rather not talk about, I went to _____ College and majored in _____ I was married for —-___ years another thing that was not good for me and which I would rather not talk about

    And so on and so on and so on… Where in any of that is a lie? Why should venture that I had a birth defect and what it was? How is that any ones business but mine! If you do not lie but practice discretion people do what people always do. They fill in the blanks and they will fill them correctly if they are allowed free rein and all the information they should be privy to.

    So if the questions might become something like “when you were a little girl did you play with dolls?” The answer would be something like. Don’t all little girls? Of course I played with them, but for the most part I was my mothers daughter. She and I were both tom boys so I rode my bike a lot more than I played with dolls. No lies, nothing to try and keep track of. Everything I have said is the absolute gospel truth and very accurate!

    Going it alone.
    Now I will grant that one is hard, one of the hardest of all the things we face. But bottom line, at some point you do have to cut the ties if you are to grow and that means new friends and new associates and a job where no one knows your past and a move to a place where you are just the woman down the street. To make that happen, for a while you have to be alone no matter how hard it may be!

    Mike did none of these things when he transitioned and then gave it up. Mike listened to those out there telling him how to do this and in doing. Made the quintessential worst mistake possible. Being out and proud. A mistake pushed day in and day out by the TG as a good thing when to the TS it is just another way to do what he did in the end.

    Commit suicide

  30. Sibyl says:

    Oppsie! The first line above should read NOT as antagonism but as honest questions.. and the typos go on from there, sorry, I’m a horrible typist!

  31. Jessica says:

    “Take all this now as antagonism but an honest questions, Jessica, are you a man, or a woman?”

    It is quite clear that, regardless of the similarities, there are great differences between the way I work at living and the rhetoric that is now being aimed at me.

    The “traditional advice” has always been described as being for the benefit of, well, since we only speak of transsexual women, transsexual men seem, as usual, not to be part of this, it is only for the benefit of transsexual women.

    For those who transition in their teens, or younger, there will be little difference between them and those born without this medical condition. For the rest of us, there is, however it is characterized, a difference.

    I suppose you never married–before you transitioned–or had children. When facilitating one of the first groups for trans people in Ottawa, I learned about so many transsexual women who had to work out their relationship with their wives. Though I’ve never married, this is an experience I cannot treat lightly.

    I guess I expect youth to be harsh, even callous, in their assessments of those older–and now I happen to hold the latter position.

    I wish you success in living the life you have outlined in your comment, Sibyl. And maybe by the time you’re my age, everything will be all hunky-dory for transsexual women when all of you live the life you have outlined–separate, apart, well-ensconced in your comfortable, presumably domestic life.

    There will be no more murders. Health care will be easily and freely accessible. And there will be no anguish, however caused, in the lives of these women. Blanchard and Zucker, and their ilk, will be dead and they have left no legacy.

    But in the world you’re proposing, no one will be working on any of these things. No one will be working to ensure our youth, who have been thrown on the street, will find shelter.

    What I’m hearing is precisely what I hear from so many gay men in particular, and conservative, if not reactionary people in general: “I’m perfectly fine in the world; I’ve got mine; too bad for you.”

  32. Leigh says:

    Do you know why we rarely if ever speak about the transsexual men? Well here is a clue. Women talk about women to women. Thats what we do, and we do it because we are not men and have no idea how men think. I have met a few F2M’s and I have to say that I have absolutly no idea how to communicate with them and they feel the same way toward us for the most part.

    Ya know, sigh .. I get so weary of having the poor downtrodden transsexual shoved down my throat as if somehow we all have some kind of duty to save them. It’s gotten to be nothing more than a beating stick, much like the TV commercials for all the poor kids in the world that will have food in their stomachs tomorrow if I should just send $10 a month to some organization that will spend 30 cents of it on the kids.

    When you start throwing that sort of argument around Jessica, well you really have nothing else to defend your pathetic arguments with, do you? It’s just another way of calling us all callous and mean with the i’m all right jack thrown in for good measure. It’s good to have a crutch isn’t it Jessica, something to blame things on, something other than the fact that you can’t cut it. I don’t give a flying goose if someone transitions at 9 or 90, anyone with the attitude of everyone else is to blame is totally never going to make it until they start taking responsability for their own actions. Nobody but nobody asked you or me or anyone else here to transition. We did it and we just have to accept the consequences of that action. Too freaking bad if you can’t get a job, keep a job, go to the supermarket without someone noticing you. Too freaking bad if you end up homeless and peniless with not a friend in the world. Too freaking bad if you let some dumb ass transgender friend on the computer tell you it’s easy and you find out later it’s a nightmare .. just too freaking bad! Nobody aske dyou to do it and nobody is stopping you going back but for anyone to say that its just not fair, that all these other poor downtrodden transsexuals should be given a fair break, that anyone that actually made it through transition is merely a self centered hypocrit with more money and opportunities than rockafella, well thats just more whining than I can bear.

    Get a life .. or grow a pair

  33. Jessica says:

    Actually, I do rather well in my life, thank you very much, Leigh.

    And your clear hostility to the ideas I propose betrays both harshness and callousness–and the very “I’m alright, Jack!” mentality I mentioned.

    I would say you have, regardless of surgical status, grown quite a big pair. Maybe you have a life to go with them?

  34. anoldfriend says:

    Jessica;
    It sounds to me like you are perfectly happy being a Tee-Gee, that is all well and good. If you are not truly borne in the wrong body and feel corrective surgery is not for you that is also all well and good. Don’t expect us to understand, because we are not like you, we are the real deal. I gave up living in the wrong body, gender and sex role 29 years ago where were no safety nets, I had to make a living, and I had nobody to support me. I had to put on the big girl pants and do the right thing.

    People like me can only show others the door, we can’t and shouldn’t hold their hand as they walk through. Transition is and should be second loneliest thing you do.
    You have to do all the heavy lifting, soul searching, questioning, working out life’s related issues, and make all the decisions.

    Gawd I hate with a passion that Homo-Socialist thinking.

    You ever notice what happens when one of us opens our mouth in a Tee-Gee group, we get shouted down and eventually booted out, you know why?

    It’s because Unsuccessful people; people have given up, Hate to be around Successful people. It reminds them of their failure to transition and assimilate into society as legitimate members of the Female Population.

  35. Sibyl says:

    Jessica,

    Attack you? Silly! I’m not trying to attack you I’m trying to help you! Again please. “Hear my words” this is said with no animosity and I apologize for being a poor typist in my last, but like it or not. These are very hard things to hear, but hard or not, they are the truth. By denying them and more so, picking this particularly audience to say it in. You are in effect coming here brash and bold and trying to teach your grandmothers how to suck eggs!

    You write to me as if I was a tender young thing, bless you dear” were that were true! Or… that I did not pay and pay dearly for my success! I did pay, as did all the other women who regularly post here. We paid every price possible. Including all you list and many more! We have been through hells unimaginable and yet we emerged! We have suffered greatly and despite that we gladly paid the price and so succeeded!

    Why is that an issue for you?

    Personally, the price I paid included all my family and friends and my businesses and my (old)community standing and everything I had ever worked for. I’ve been ridiculed and reviled, laughed at and assaulted, belittled and shunned. If there was a hateful thing one can do to another I have experienced it.

    Access to health care you say? In transition I was turned down my numerous practitioners and then released from the only two who would deign to see me. Because after a time or two they decided they did not want to have someone like me in their buildings. Yet I was there for serious and pressing health issues which had no bearing on transition… Issues that cost me a decade of pain… Please don’t lecture me on this one. I’ve no humor for it!

    The point being, this thing we call transition is not for the feint of heart! Or as Leigh more colorfully put it “you have to grow a pair.” Like it or not Jessica, the binary is real, it exists and if there was a mistake made that caused us to straddle the line internally. The price to correct the mistake and cross over is to be paid in blood! That is simply NOT a negotiable element.

    Yet if it is paid in full the rewards are beyond measure! All those concerns you mention are nothing to me these days. My life is that of a normal middle aged woman. I get up and clean my home, go to work and come back and tend to matters before go to bed. Sometimes alone, and sometimes not.. Given the predilections and peccadilloes of men, that is both good and bad! Anyway, nowhere in my life now is there room for what was and I would gladly do it all again for what I have.

    I understand where you are coming from. I know because I was there, so please do not so lightly dismiss what I, and the others here have to say… There is a wealth of success here… several lifetimes worth of practical direction and wisdom on how to achieve it if you would, so please sit down and take it in rather than tell us it can’t be done or that we are elitist for having done it.

    Oh FtM? Like Leigh I really would not even try to speak for them. I do not understand their struggles (they WANT chest hair?!) but this I do know! Poor surgical out comes change nothing! I’ve a dear friend in Toronto who made the same sacrifices by taking the old path unlike so many others who embrace being the victim and he moved on to a successful life. He being a guy would laugh long and hard at your assertions that it cannot be done by a… guy!

  36. Sara says:

    What Sybil said so very eloquently and Leigh, more, ummmm, directly I can’t help but echo. We didn’t get to the point of success in our jobs, friendships, relationships etc. without a lot of work, sacrifice, loss, tears, blood, and frustration. It’s all about perseverance and never looking back, ever. I mean, why transition with one eye glued to the rear view mirror? It makes no sense at all to live that way. I never think about any part of my prior life. What in the world for? It’s gone, happily gone, and I have a new life to live.

    I plan on living it. Jessica, you can too.

    Sara …

  37. Leigh says:

    Plain speak was my mothers trademark. Not nearly enough of it going around and if there was perhaps Mike Penner would not be dead today.

    Suggestion: Try the glbt and crossdressing chats instead. They are more likely to sugar coat everything for you. Autumn Sandeen over at PHB will keep you safe from plain talk ..

  38. Sara says:

    That’s what the majority of the lgbt want Leigh.

    They want all the pointed corners softened and sharp objects removed from their lives. It doesn’t work that way, as you well know.

    Sara …

  39. Leigh says:

    Sara ..

    Too right! I mean they just canned Ron Gold over at bilerico for having the cajones to say what the rank and file gay men REALLY think of transgender nonsense. I tell you, for every one supportive nelly in the gay community there are 10 that wouldn’t cross the road to pee on a transgender if they were on fire. But if one of their rank even dare to speak the truth they are immediatly silenced. And the never ending round of bullshit is perpetuated.

  40. Sibyl says:

    Oh btw, seeing as I am the devil incarnate anyway, could somebody please explain to me why Christine “Glamazon” Beatty who commented above rather voraciously above how far afield we are for saying dastardly and unspeakable things like “Yes Virginia, “there’s a binary!” Is the same person giving lectures on You Tube about what it’s like to be Transsexual while dressed in nothing but her underwear and all the while complaining that no one is taking her serious?

    Did I miss something? Please tell me that was some sort of performance art and that she was not really serious!

    She was?

    You are KIDDING! Right? Is it any wonder our history is so utterly toxic if that is what folks see as being representative of what all woman with a transsexual history are like!

    I can see me doing a presentation now!
    I want to thank you ladies and gentleman for coming here today so that I can show you all the many the advantages you’ll find on our new widget 3000X as well as explaining why purchasing one will make your life better than ever!

    Oh, you in the back. You’ve a question?

    Why am I giving this presentation in my underwear and something a bit more… conservative like I dunno, a business suit?

    Well duhhhhhhhh! Because I’m a transsexual!!! Any other stupid questions?

    Wait where is everyone going? Was it my thong? Would you have preferred a bikini? High-rise briefs? Was there hair showing? Please! Folks! I need some feed back here if I am to make my underwear a real crowd pleaser!

    Sibyl shakes her head and heads out the door. Time to take a breather in the real world!

  41. anoldfriend says:

    Sibyl;
    You made me laugh so hard I though I was going to bust something.

  42. SA-ET says:

    I have promised not to enter the gender debate, and this comment is not to address the gender discussion above. Others, above, have expressed a position they know I hold way more eloquently that I ever could. My comment is in regards to violence, specifically the comment above that says with regards to transsexual and transgender females, emphasis mine:

    “And maybe by the time you’re my age, everything will be all hunky-dory for transsexual women…There will be no more murders…”

    I have harped on this issue before when I used to debate on the GLBT blogs and did so every time a TS/TG person was held up as a martyr when they were assaulted or murdered. And, I will continue to speak out on it for to not speak up is doing a disfavor to both the TSs and TGs who follow, no matter how they identify.

    Before I start my rant, I will ask how many who might read this comment have ever actually gone to the Transgender Day or Remembrance web site? The second paragraph on that page says this, emphasis is mine:

    “Although not every person represented during the Day or Remembrance self-identified as transgender – that is, as a transsexual, crossdresser, or otherwise gender-variant – each was a victim of violence based on bias against transgender people.

    So that site says that each person listed…every single one of them…”each was a victim of violence based on bias against transgender people.” That’s what it says.

    Now, if one has not made the trek, I will point you to where it is possible to see exactly who the people who are remembered each year are. The link is HERE, because it can be a bit difficult to find. When that black and white page comes up, there are many names…and each name is a link that, when clicked, gives information surrounding the death of the person. It is worth the time to click each name and read what happened; sometimes there is a lot of information on the circumstances, some names have almost no information other than the city, state, and cause of death.

    Right off the bat, I have to say two things. First, to me, there is no justifiable reason for murder or even killing, unless it is self defense and anyone who commits murder should be punished to the very fullest extent the law allows. And, secondly, in my opinion, every time anyone is murdered, transgender or otherwise, whether one knows the person or not, whether one is even aware of the crime or not, humanity on the entire planet suffers.

    Next, I have to say that I have no issue whatsoever with any group, including the transgender, remembering people within their group who have been killed, regardless of what the circumstances behind the death was. I do have a problem with the GLBT continuing to hold up anyone and everyone who is either gay, lesbian, bisexual, or of whom falls anywhere under the “T” umbrella, and has been killed, as a martyr and insinuating that society as a whole hates them and is responsible for their death. I just do not believe that is the case.

    When one reads the circumstances surrounding the death of those listed on the Remembering our Dead site, several things are apparent. Many of the names have no circumstances surrounding their death at all, no details whatsoever, on the cause of death…for example Anthony Swain and Edna Brown (there are many others). Others listed there do not even have a name or any information about the person, for example one is listed as Unknown person wearing a wig who died from a Blow to the head; another is listed as Unknown person dressed in women’s clothing who was Shot once in the chest. There are many listed on that site that fall into the above categories. The brutal truth is that there is absolutely no one who can, or at least has not been able to yet, determine the circumstances behind their death; even more to the point, these poor people could have been killed for just about any reason one can imagine, including reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that they may, or may not have been transgender…or that the reason the person who killed them had a bias against transgender people .

    Aside from those listed on the site that have only a name and cause of death…and could have been killed for any imaginable reason, some on the site were murdered alright, but obviously not because they were transgendered. An example is Jean Shelly Boushard Fox who was shot by her husband. According to the site, this poor woman was not killed because she was transgendered: ”Robert Fox, Jean’s husband, murdered her after finding love letters written to a former lover.”

    Another group of those listed on the site obviously made some very serious judgment decisions. Some of those killed were prostitutes. Some of those who were murdered appeared to be out alone very late at night. And, yes, according to the site there are some who appeared to have been killed for no other reason than being transgendered.

    Though I have read the site, and urge others to do the same, I’m not about to do a statistical analysis on what the site says with regards to the reasons, cause of death, etc; go read for yourself, draw your own conclusions. I do have one thing to say though about the list before I conclude with my point. It seems quite apparent to me, from reading the story behind each and every name on the Remembering our Dead web site, that two things are certain:

    (1) Though, assuredly, each of those listed was in fact killed, it is anything but certain that each of them was even transgender (see the quote above where the Day of Remembrance site, itself, admits this).

    (2) For many, if not most, who are listed on that site it is also anything but certain that these unfortunate people were killed, as the Day of Remembrance site says they were, because: ”…each was a victim of violence based on a bias against transgender people.”

    Again, go to the site, draw your own conclusions.

    Are some people killed simply because who they are? Yes, it happens all the time, and not just to the transgendered. Are some people killed simply due to the circumstances they have found themselves in or simply for not exercising good judgment? I think the answer to that is also yes. But more importantly, I think the question that must be asked is whether are not there are people who belong to a marginalized group, such as the transgender, who are murdered or the victims of violence not because of ”who they are” or because they belong to a marginalized group but ”…due to the circumstances they have found themselves in or for simply not exercising good judgment” …in other words, not killed just because they happen to belong to a marginalized group, but belong to a marginalized group and just happen to have been killed? I, for one, think the answer to that question is a resounding yes as well.

    I have already stated that I have no problem with the Transgender Day of Remembrance. However, I think it is disingenuous and misleading of that site to include every possible transgender person who has ever been murdered and then state the reason is because “…each was a victim of violence…” and were murdered because each and every one on their list was ”…a victim of violence based on a bias against transgender people”. I specifically think that because for many of the people listed there, there are no details whatsoever on the murder and they could have been killed by any one for any reason possibly imaginable…or the details are of a murder of someone who also happens to be transgender yet the details give no indication in the least that they were killed because there were transgender or because of a bias against transgender people in general.

    I supported hate crimes legislation.

    I do not support the continuing, ongoing, seemingly never ending proposition that any and every transgender or gender variant person on the planet is in danger and, essentially, has a set of crosshairs set on them by society the moment they walk out their front door each day.

    I do not support the concept that society as a whole hates those who in anyway fall under the transgender umbrella.

    Certainly there are many, many, many prejudiced people in the world…including those who are prejudiced against the transgender. But, the transgender do not hold a monopoly on being the focus of prejudicial treatment. Even more important, however, is that though some murders are committed out of prejudice, according to the FBI, most are not…the very vast majority are not. Nothing on the Transgender Day of Remembrance or Remembering our Dead web sites leads to any conclusion that the FBI statistics are any different for the transgender…nothing.

    Those who are transgender and others who are GLB and who continue to make statements on the blogs along the line of “when they stop murdering us” or “we are being murdered everyday”….anything along a line that insinuates that society is out to harm, assault, kill, or eradicate them because they are transgender is simply dog dumb ridiculous. The implication that every transgender person who is murdered is murdered because they are transgender is simply ludicrous.

  43. anoldfriend says:

    Well DB;
    The only reason I post under a pseudo name is because of the death threats I have relieved from those who can’t cut the mustard and are jealous of my determination and willingness to wade though the adversity you and others are so afraid to.
    You have no right to judge me, I started on this journey 29 fucking years ago, when you were ether so buried in the closet or so afraid to commit yourself to transition or god forbid you were not even borne yet. It’s people like you that make the Tee-Gees easy to hate, but I don’t hate people like you I pity people like you.

    Those that died for who they are at least tried to be who they are.

    What do you have to say for your sorry ass.

  44. catkisser says:

    Christine, what is your purpose here (and anoldfriend isn’t jenn usher btw, jenn usher is using a different name and writes a blog of her own, no I won’t tell you which)

    For many there are two separate transitions, some only one. Some transition to “transsexual” and never make it to woman, some transition to woman directly and a few transition to transsexual and then finally to woman.

    Christine, there is no hatred towards you by me, so why do you feel the need to harass those who made the one step transition to woman? That’s the hard question you should ask yourself.

  45. cassandraspeaks says:

    Jessica, please read my post on Christine Daniels/Mike Penner. Then read this post again. There was a time in my own transition where I was forced to switch back to an image that I was trying to leave behind. It was the worst time of my life. I was at a particulary low point in my whole existance. I would face the prospect of having to return to the spectre with the dread one might feel at facing the very gates of hell. It was a time when I was closest to doing what Mike/Christine did. Some people handle that better than others and that is what everyone here is really talking about when it comes down to it.

    It is possible to leave that person behind completly and totally and become the person that is true to yourself and it can be done even later in life. However the later in life it is left the more costly in terms of emotional cost it becomes. But because it is costly and because it is harder it does not imply that its impossible. Now it may be that you feel the price is too high and the return not good value. However, that is a choice and one that only you can make.
    From a personal perspective and in my experience those who are prepared to make that leap of faith it undoubtedly is, live less troubled lives in the long term. Believe me I have witnessed a great many people arrive at these crossroads. Christine/Mikes example would be wasted if no one learns from it.

  46. cassandraspeaks says:

    Christione Beatty, you make judgements about which you have no knowledge, you have no concept about the lives of any of the women here or about the barriers they have have faced and some continue to face every day. There is a little thing called choice. There is always choice and I hear constantly that those who enter prostitution do so because they had no alternative. Let me tell you Christine Beatty about “Victim Mentality” It is there in your words your philosophy and on your website. You and so many others like you choose to be victims.

    You know nothing of me or my life and yet you make assumptions that I and the others here live in privilage and middle class luxury. well let me tell you I have been about as far down the social ladder as it is possible to go but I pulled myself out without ever resorting to prostitution. I thought about it but I chose not too. There you see “choice”.

    Every time you Christine Beatty put one of your pathetic film clips on You Tube for the perverts to masturbate too while you spout your “Look at me, this is what transgender is” you make it harder for any civilised genuine transsexual to admit to the world that they are transsexual for fear of being associated with the likes of you. Frankly you are sickening in appearance demeanour and in word. Is it any wonder we want nothing to do with you. To cap it all you come here telling us that we must be like you, that we are the ones who are sickening.

    As for you DB you post annonomously and accuse us of “hiding” how typical of Tg duplicity and double standards is that. You then make patently untrue claims about how it is, those who are out and proud who are winning all the rights when the truth is that it’s the out and proud who have robbed us of many of those rights. In the 1960’s it was possible in all 48 states to change your birth certificates discreetly and anonymously. Look at the situation now. It is those who were discreet and genuine who have suffered as a result of your marches and parading yourselves who are responsible.

    No one not a single person here believes that Christine Daniels/ Mike Penners suicide was anything other than a tragic and senseless waste of a decent life. Some people handle the public glare some cannot. Perhaps they could not. All of us DB have at sometime contemplated suicide, some even attempted it and fortunately failed but lived on to eventually succeed. That makes us lucky not privilaged. What are we supposed to do tear our clothes and beat our chests everyday for a year in penance. Get real, get a real life not a life in the TG ghetto. You want to live there that’s fine for you but speaking for me and only me my need in life was to be a woman not some halfway in between apology. You’re pathetic DB and I’m fed up with the likes of you telling me how to live my life and what I should think.

  47. joanne says:

    Frankly Christine and Jessica, all this name-calling is pretty immature. You may both have to readjust your beliefs once the DSM-V is published. This is what Peggy Cohen-Kettnis and Friedemann Pfafflin have to say on the current diagnosis. Read it carefully: both of you!

    “Although it may be that the current GID diagnosis [DSM-IV (TR) ] for adolescents and adults intended to indicate a condition as serious as transsexualism, the criteria are, in fact, somewhat broader.

    This implies that aman can meet the two core criteria if he only believes he has the typical feelings of a woman and does not feel at ease with the male gender role. The same holds for a woman who only frequently passes as a man (e.g., in terms of first name, clothing, and/or haircut) and does not feel comfortable living as a conventional woman.

    Someone having a GID diagnosis based on these subcriteria clearly differs from a person who identifies completely with the other sex, can
    only relax when permanently living in the other gender role, has a strong aversion against the sex characteristics of his/her body, and wants to adjust
    his/her body as much as technically possible in the direction of the desired sex.”

    They also quite clearly accept that whatever new diagnosis emerges, (and one surely will), it should be worded so as to be not applicable to post-operative
    women and men who have completed their treatment.

    There are changes coming. For starters It is obvious that the over concentration on gender role transgression has been skewing research results and leading to unnecessary and inappropriate SRS.

    The changes may not satisfy everyone including me. But a clear separation between TG & TS is in the offing. I refer you to Jan Wålinder’s definition. A return to something like that is long overdue, and whether TG’s like it or not, is undoubtedly coming! Regardless of your childish playground attitudes and behavior.

    Source:
    Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis & Friedemann Pfafflin. 1999 The DSM Diagnostic Criteria for Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents and Adults. Arch Sex Behav.

  48. Sibyl says:

    There she goes again! Sibyl the Destructor! Sibyl the Devil Incarnate! Sibyl, the transgender denying, inverted penis neo-vaginal owner and elitist hater of all non-normative gender expressions whom it seems would gladly deny all trans-gay expressive brethren and sisters the light of day! She, he, it, must be one of the most vile and sick women, men, things, to ever draw breath. Obviously bent on nothing more than insuring at all cost her, his, hier, evil plot to keep the little guy down!

    Darn it! Did I really say little guy? I’m so SO sorry! That was not very PC of me was it? Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa! Mea maxima culpa with sugar and sprinkles on top!

    What I should have said was;” her, his, hier, evil plot to keep down the cisgendered hetronormative person with a masculine perceived and expressed identity who may or may not be bi-curious or differently sexualized!”

    Was that better? Did I get it right this time?

    I really am sorry if it seems I’m being more than a little flip, given the thread is about the exploration of Mike Penner’s unfortunate death. More so as my personal feeling is this senseless tragedy was in no small part due to his being placed in such an untenable position by his attempted transition!

    But it really is getting funny when this very mild mannered, polite, middle class, middle aged southern woman is being cast here as some horrible evil “guy” who would forcefully clad all “gender-expressive persons” in burqua’s when the only evidence of my obviously malicious intent is that I would D-A-R-E- to say…

    One can succeed in reaching their dream? Oh the horror! Oh the humanity!

    I guess somewhere along the line when I wasn’t looking it somehow became a bad thing to suggest taking the harder road or completing the difficult journey to folks as those are now athema to all that is good and holy? Or is that only true unless you say them clad only in your underwear?

    I mean how dare I even contemplate much less say these horrible things? What if were to tell my BF’s that I once had a dick? Would that satisfy as penitence? Would it be better if I do it in a very public way so that he would be forced to beat the crap out of me?

    Oh wait. Darn it there I go again! Having a BF, much less thinking one day of marriage and a home and a family means I’m being all hetronormatively elitist.. AGAIN!

    Is there any hope for this poor member of the Transsexual Taliban? Imagine the very idea! Wanting a penis in me rather than on me… Have I no shame? Is it too late for this fallen lamb to reform from the terrors of normalcy as a woman? What if I wear nothing but flannel shirts, cut my hair short and get a taste for taco’s rather than cucumbers? Or perhaps make a bunch of videos of me in my undies announcing to the world that I’m a Transsexual? Transgender? Transformer? Oh, I would be sure that the undies were made of fair trade cotton of course!

    No, fraid its way too late for this one (and being a transformer would have been so cool too!) I guess I’ve gotten the message so I’ll stop saying those horrible things like you can reach for the stars and touch them or that you can succeed or there is an end to transition…

    Can’t imagine now what ever promoted me to say them in the first place. Oh, wait, I remember, I did them!

  49. joanne says:

    P.S. to Joanne, I notice you didn’t chide your compatriots for name-calling. Why do they get a pass from your Hall Monitor policing?

    For heavens sake Christine! Deal with the issues that I raised instead of looking for imaginary slights.

    Read Wålinder’s definition at the top of AB’s post. Better still access the ‘Fluff’ link and read that. Maybe you (and others) will get your heads around the obvious – that these misconceptions are created by the idiotic theories of self-anointed ersatz experts: not by me or you!

    If you weren’t so dependent on them you would, like most of the women here, have understood this long ago!

    The self-anointed ersatz experts are signaling their awareness of this. You and others need to recognize it too. For your own sakes, to get your heads around the obvious – and what we have been trying to tell you for years.

    It isn’t our fault that you have been mislead. Its partly your own for gullibility, and partly the so-called experts for denial and ignorance.

    Put the responsibility where it belongs – not on us!

  50. cassandraspeaks says:

    DB not one of the statements you make in this are founded on truth they simply continue to perpetrate the lie. I read the reports on what McHugh did at Hopkins. You cannot even get that part right. The studies were done only on the patients junior therapists could find. So many of them had vanished into the wood work. The only ones left were the ones that were out in other words TG or non “stealth”

    You read into things what you wish to read and with an attitude like that how can you ever understand reality. You’ve been allowed free reign here by our gracious hostess Aria and you’ve been allowed to speak you lies. Would that happen if we posted on the TG sites and forums? I think not not.

    DB wake up to yourself get a life I have. Your time and those like you is up. As Joanne has pointed out your writing is on the wall and what you’ve said here is an illustration of why. You’re in no position to critisize me.

  51. joanne says:

    LOL –

    As Joanne has pointed out your writing is on the wall…

    DB didn’t get that bit Cassandra. Selective reader 😉

    Boring too!

  52. joanne says:

    BTW DB

    Note:
    “…clearly differs from a person who identifies completely with the other sex, can only relax when permanently living in the other gender role, has a strong aversion against the sex characteristics of his/her body, and wants to adjust his/her body as much as technically possible in the direction of the desired sex.” (Cohen-Kettines & Pfafflin signaling the upcoming DSM-V revision.

    Wålinder, 1969

    1. A sense of belonging to the opposite sex, of having been born into the wrong sex, of being one of nature’s extant errors.

    2. A sense of estrangement with one’s own body; all indications of sex differentiation are considered as afflictions and repugnant.

    3. A strong desire to resemble physically the opposite sex via therapy including surgery.

    4. A desire to be accepted in the community as belonging to the opposite sex.

    Now try really, really hard DB: really, really hard.

    And tell us whether there are any elements of Cohen-Kettines and Pfafflin’s description that is not contained in Wålinder’s.

    Never mind about finding something obnoxious to say. Just ask yourself – what does it all mean.

    Fortunately, I’ve taken the time to read these papers so I can see what is coming. You can abuse me and others to your heart’s content for all I care. What you cannot do is hide!

  53. joanne says:

    Oh dear…

    Lets try another approach:

    Take of your nasty hat and put on your grown up hat.

    Now, wearing your grown up hat try to analyze what Cohen-Kettenis and Pfafflin are saying. If you try really hard you can do it DB.

    Remember – no nasty hat…

  54. Sara says:

    Sibyl,

    Say this is you, please! Else I have to contemlate that it might be real, and that is someplace I don’t want to go.

    Sara …

    http://stopavatarmovie.blogspot.com/2009/12/december-18-2009-international-day-of.html

  55. catkisser says:

    I am going to address the “hiding” and abuse part. I was an out and open tran-activist, a fairly well known one. When the umbrella usage began I advocated strongly for transsexual and transgender. Want to know what happened?….I got credible death threats, my computer was hit with virus after virus, I was outed on my job and am permanently physically disabled as a direct result. I was smeared, driven out of all activism. When, disabled, I took all my resources left and set up a housing co-operative for newly transitioned women it was invaded by transgenders after it proved successful who abused me so badly they drove me out of my own home! Not content with that, they tried to make sure I lost the apartment I couldn’t afford on disability! They tried to nuke all my internet accounts and websites, I was subscribed to over 300 magazines, they even tried to cancel my snail mail deliveries!, I was turned in to Homeland Security as a terrorist and was under direct observation by the FBI for weeks. I was raped.

    I am living proof that TGs can and are willing to be terrorists… without a doubt and no hype.

    I’m still here, I got my Inn back, the locals stood behind me but we lost our tax exempt status in the process and I am still in a legal battle to restore that.

    DB, go f**k yourself. Being post op doesn’t make you a woman, a female neurology does.

  56. catkisser says:

    and and lest you think these were pathetic internet shadows that did these things……a couple of them are still doing the presentations at gender conferences, another is a Trinity Award winner…….two others are still among the most vocal voices in trans activism.

  57. Sibyl says:

    Sara,

    I have no idea WHAT to say to that bit of weirdness! I may have a sense of humor but that? Beyond any place I would go!

  58. DB says:

    The term “transgendered” is simply used to describe the birth gender non-conforming . Is your grasp on gender so fragile that another persons can disturb it ? Aria, I’ve heard this all before from gays saying they have nothing in common with us , yet some of us started as gay men.

    “This is a fight between women who were born with that birth defect, and the “transgender” men who want to hide behind our skirts.” -Aria

    Admitting you are attacking them is a good first step because then you can answer why you think you get to do that without response. I’m fascinated. Why is it, you seem to need the shadows . Why not come out and show the world a “real transsexual ” ? Would that not be the most convincing evidence of your superiority to the “men in dresses “? Sacrifice your own personal anonymity for the greater good.

    “Someone that calls themselves a “transwoman” and constantly attacks women who speak up for themselves tells the world in no uncertain terms exactly who “transwomen” are.”-Aria

    My god, you really don’t see how that fits you to a T , do you ( ironic , isn’t it ? ). I suppose it’s a little like creating god in your own image. You’ve all made statements blaming other groups for your struggles and then you call for allegiance based on a common “deformation “, your words not mine. If you are women why are you even posting ?

    “The very notion of crossdressing to steal women’s voices is pure misogyny.”

    What about FTM’s and drag kings, are they stealing mens voices ? Hmm ? Why does none of what you say ever apply to the “brothers” ? To me that is a direct assault on the female gender.

    “These strident voices, bellowing for special favors, demanding the world change to suit them, are not the voices of women. For people who believe that gender is merely a social performance, you all are doing a terrible job.”- Aria

    You mean like laws that wont let people beat , kill or fire someone for being transgender ? Heavens no , too bad they got all those gay people included huh . They don’t need any special favors either ! =)

    “I am living proof that TGs can and are willing to be terrorists… without a doubt and no hype.”-catkisser

    No, actually you are living proof of someone willing to be vengeful against an entire group for the actions of a few. It’s actually called being a “bigot” . That is “assuming ” any of what you said is true.

    “DB, go f**k yourself. Being post op doesn’t make you a woman, a female neurology does.”-catkisser

    Oh how are you going to prove that ? Any drag queen can imitate a woman . =) I’m really happy for you getting you inn back but the entire hysterical Dottie Hinckle thing, not very convincing .

    And joanne , thanks but I’m not worried about what the DSM says any more. It’s irrelevant to my life . I’m taking up Aria’s kindly offer to leave. Y’all don’t want us inclusive post ops around. See ya.

  59. catkisser says:

    DP, the term “transgender” was coined by possibly the most transsexual phobic asshole who ever walked the earth. It is an open assault on the womanhood of those who corrected their bodies and went on with their lives. the association with transsexuality undid twenty years of earning acceptance by the general public done before hand. It has caused direct harm to those of us who object to it.

    It means fetishitic masturbator to me…..

    Your total lack of empathy tells me all I need to know about you. Rot in hell.

  60. DB says:

    “It means fetishitic masturbator to me…..”-catkisser

    That makes perfect sense to me. You imagine things you know personally well.

    “Your total lack of empathy tells me all I need to know about you. Rot in hell.”-catkisser

    Was I supposed to have empathy for you before or after you started insulting everyone ? I wish you a wonderful day puddin ! Enjoy !

  61. Sibyl says:

    To all,

    I ask, why does this always happen? How is it just the idea and nothing more that one might, at some point want to be done with transition become so repugnant? Why is there so much derision to greet any comments at all about how one might go about this? I don’t know! Seems that every single time this is raised, every single time we say; “it can be done… we know because we did it!” Our voices are viciously hooted down in a shrill cacophony by those dead set on creating something amorphous in the middle?

    Were these same, the original American colonists, James Town and Plymouth would be nothing more than a bunch of leaky moldering ships awash somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic.

    How I ask do we, or for that matter, can we, convey that we have in fact been there, done that? That we lived the very hells they are in and we survived?. How do we convey that we are not just a bunch of fanatics as so many are, busy typing away in our garrets with grand and unresolved fantasies of a perfect princess life. But real flesh and blood women who walked every painful step of the path they are on and emerged battle scared but whole on the other side. Women who would be more than willing to help those behind to avoid the pitfalls and unnecessary heart aches.

    Sadly it seems we can’t. With few exceptions, all the TG I’ve encountered to date and they are legion, seem to come with a predisposed mindset that no matter what, they can teach grandma the best ways to suck eggs. They may have only been on the path for a few days or weeks or months or even a few years, but by god, they know there is a better way to do this!

    Again and again when I raise this idea I am shouted down by those who have never lived day one in an undisclosed life. Who have not the faintest of what it feels like to be taken at face value, not once or twice, but as something so constant and sure that it is akin to the rising of the sun.

    What is worse is to watch those who helped others and me along the way get the same treatment or worse. Women who have not been “read” in decades. Women who started out the same as all but with no support and yet persevered to became exactly what we wanted so desperately as we cried ourselves to sleep in the before time. Normal!

    So why don’t I just turn the computer off and call it a lost cause? I could and I am sorely tempted on a daily basis

    The answer is simple really, on two counts.

    One,
    There are others just like us this very day setting foot to the path and if our voice is not out there, then all they will hear is the cacophony. That loud braying which will inexorably lead them into painful and perhaps unrecoverable mistakes. Mistakes such as public transitions and becoming out and proud three weeks into it. Mistakes which will haunt them for years to come. Mistakes, which may be the very reason Mike Penner, took his own life.

    Two,
    Those who deride us are very very vocal in it. They are the ones who make a point of being out there in front of the cameras any time one shows saying loudly, “look at me! I may have a beard, and a penis and all the other attributes of a man, but this is what a “woman” looks like…(see http://jasperswardrobe.wordpress.com/”) All they are doing by this is educating an ever more savvy laity in what to look for as transsexual. Something which constantly raises the bar for all of us and makes transition for those who follow even more of a nightmare. And they are also being so obnoxious as they go about it, that all-public sentiment is turned against them and as they are equated, us. By their actions we ALL go from women who had a correctable medical issue to; as so “eloquently” put in the last comment on the site Sara linked to.

    “Fucking faggots…”

    And with that I am turning off the computer for a while at least and going about a life that has none of these

  62. anoldfriend says:

    DB you have fallen for the identity politics BS hook line sinker and boat

    Legitimate woman don’t parade their parade their medical history around in front of strangers, that is freakish behavior. It’s a form of warped exhibitionism. The ultamate in this warped exhibitionism are gay pride parades. Think it about for a moment, who in the world would be involved in a march of people who are obsessed with sex? Who dress like Jerry Springer freaks. Talk about the lowest of side-shows.

    Back in the mid 90s the Tee-Gees bought into this freakish identity politics.

    When you walk to someone and tell them you are a cross dresser you are telling them you wear woman’s cloths and masturbate into them. That is what that stranger sees.

    When you tell them you are Tee-Gee they make the connection to the crossdresser.

    When you tell them you are a Transwoman, you are telling that stranger two things.
    First you are telling them hyou are something less than a real woman.
    Second you are by using the word Trans- linking yourself back to cross dressers, and we know what that stranger things about cross dressers.

    So why would anybody in their right mind associate with a marginalized group?

    Real Transsexuals are not marginalized. They are not because they transitioned into female society, they assimilate the behaviors of females, they have corrective surgery, change their documents and move on leaving their former sex and gender roles behind.

    Yes most of us hated our bodies before corrective surgery just like any other person with a birth defect.

    What is it about this you don’t understand or are you out and proud because you cannot assimilate into mainstream female society?
    If you can’t I feel for you but coming here and berating us for wanting to be normal is just plane wrong.

    What do you have to loose if we strive to be normal female members of society?

  63. Leigh says:

    The act of transitioning from one sex to another, that is, becoming one with the target sex they are transitioning to, does not allow for any kind of out and proud attitude. There is nothing to be out and proud about unless you want people to know that you are not a female, and not a male either. That is transition to a permenant state of neither, not one and not the other. That is a life style and the only transitioners that do this are primarily gay males, the ones we used to call flamers before the GLB moved them into the T category. No matter the label, genderqueer, shemale, drag queen, its not a transition to be a member of the other sex, it is a transition to be other than and it is one that is readily condoned among fringe areas of society. I have no doubt that DB is revered among hir circle of friends, the prostitutes, the she males, the transgender and the gender queer, the drags and the gay bar crowd, and yes, even among some of the general public.

    Do I have a problem with that? not in the least. Each to their own. I think Aria put it best when she said that the general public doesn’t need anyone to educate them, they have all the information they need about a particular person just by using their eyes and ears.

    as for DB .. I have heard all I need to hear.

  64. Leigh says:

    Like ummm .. yours?

  65. anoldfriend says:

    Leigh;
    They don’t get it, they want to justify their exhibitionist behavior. They can’t function without being the center of attention and this is the most extreme way they can ensure that.

  66. Joanne says:

    Hi Leigh

    Its becoming a favorite tactic of tg fanatics. They just accuse everybody else of every flaw, every failing, and every inadequacy they demonstrate by their own behavior.

    It saves them having to face the obvious: that the idiotic identity dogma that they rely on is so full holes, has its origins in deception and deceit, is so lacking in scientific integrity that only a behaviorist or a lunatic could possibly take any aspect of it seriously.

    Most reasonable people don’t. And that’s their problem. Now a growing number of jurisdictions have recognized the dangers of pediatric ‘gender assignments’ and have stopped performing them.

    This is significant because over a third of all infants who were supposedly ‘assigned’ a social gender role (gender assignment) rejected both that and the sex assignment that accompanies it.

    This tells us that the assumed inflexibility of the so called gender identity was and is another of John Money’s deceptions. It is flexible, plastic and alterable, just like religious identity, or a raft of other identities that humans acquire over the course of their lives.

    I’m not saying change is coming quickly. Behaviorists will not give up their their power over our lives so quickly. But it is surely coming.

    Where that is going to leave the transgenders, utterly dependent as they are, on selling their pseudo-science as if it were something more than unmitigated nonsense, is anybody’s guess.

  67. Leigh says:

    Look DB .. it is not for me to “educate” or teach or preach to anyone and I have to tell you, not only do I not suffer fools easily, but I have no wish to try to teach pigs to sing. I too have been around the block more than a few times and yes I too have kept the company of prostitutes, albeit GG ones, in fact at one point in my early life I married one for reasons of mutual convenience. That was a very long time ago. Just for the record, I had SRS 25 years ago. Cassandra is also a long term transitioned and happily married woman, to a man that has no clue of her past life. Thats not hiding, its being the woman she is.

    I think it foolish if not naive to believe that anyone that says they are transsexed, actually is transsexed. They may think they are, they may even be able to convince people they are, but the fact of the matter is that most are not transsexed at all. If you want to believe that anyone who claims transsexuality actually is transsexual then go right ahead. Nobody stopping you, there is a sucker born every minute.

    With that said, I have no intention of addressing them as anything but men until by their actions they show me different. Someone that wants to retain male genitalia for ANY reason has no business being considered a female.

    What does it hurt any of us how those people present themselves ? Well it hurts the legitimacy of those of us that actually did do full transition to be just another woman on the planet. If you cant see that then fine, go about your business and stop sitting here ragging on those of us that do not wish to be considered by the public at large as nothing more than men in dresses, as freaks, as gay men with a neovagina, as sexual perverts and homosexual men.

    And that is all I have to say on this.

  68. Leigh says:

    Good lord .. DB just melted down like a reactor with spent rods!

  69. Joanne says:

    What fascinates me is the way they rock in and lay down the law. From the start their pontifications are full of venom. When they are responded to in kind its everybody elses fault and never theirs.

    They cast themselves in the lead role of some fantasy tragi-drama inside their own heads and demand that everybody else validate it for them. When you refuse your accused of being the one with the fantasy life.

    Every attempt I personally made to have a rational discourse with either of them was met with ignorance and rudeness. What the heck do they expect in return?

    Frankly the only difference I can see between Anne Lawrence and either DB or Christine is that Lawrence is honest about her experience and doesn’t (to my knowledge) abuse people who disagree with her.

  70. Leigh says:

    Joanne ..

    Pretty much sums it up. I thought perhaps to get some reasonable argument but no, just more accusations and shout downs. That in itself wouldn’t be SO bad if the accusations even came close to any semblage of reality but this latest round of venom was nothing more than a childish rant. Makes you want to slap them for being so silly.

    I had the displeasure of meeting Anne Lawrence once, we took an instant dislike to each other.

    Can’t wait for the hardcopy version from Christine. 🙂

  71. Joanne says:

    Leigh …
    Can’t wait for the hardcopy version from Christine.

    LOL – You’ve already seen it a hundred times or more. Its a tragi-drama with Christine (Oh! poor little me) as the victim … 🙂

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

  72. ‘DB and ‘Beatty’.

    You keep making sweeping collective statements, so i will accept them as directed at me and respond accordingly.

    i own pretty much nothing but jeans and t-tops. Twenty or more of each, and…i think three dresses. Two of them being LBDs (for yearly formals as promised by my boyfriend), and a sundress i wear every once and awhile when i’m exceptionally tired and not leaving the house.

    About a dozen pairs of sneakers, and i think two pairs of high heels. Again, formal.

    i have a strange compulsion to avoid anything but junk jewelry. i don’t support blood diamonds.

    Never thought to analyze my wardrobe before. Weird.

    Never been called a ‘ghoul’. Never been called a ‘terrorist’. Actually, i’ve never been directly insulted like that before.

    i have worked extensively in surveys and polls, both legitimate and push-pull (it was my last job). It is accepted reality both in politics and the private sector that for every one person that complains, between 50 to 100 will remain silent.

    In order to stay conservative with numbers, research studies will pull that ratio back to 1 in 20. Which means that the 125 that bothered to say anything represent 2,500. There are just over 40,000 confirmed post-operative women in the U.S.

    The petition represents about 7.5% of the post-operative populace, and growing.

    Jennifer is not ‘anoldfriend’. Post trace-route identification proof if you contest this, or retract your accusation. Deflective comments will only be considered an admission of your false accusation.

    i am openly transsexual, and do not live in any sort of ‘fear’ over being found out. This is a false accusation.

    i have a blog with pictures and videos. Accusing my of ‘hiding’ from you or any other activist is a false accusation.

    So you insult us by calling us the ‘Vampire Girls’.

    Well, vampires are all the rage now, i suppose. It’s much less imaginative than the ‘Bad Girls Club’ that i heard earlier.

    You claim my transition is not public. This is a false accusation.

    You accuse Catkisser of ‘hiding in a dark hole’ and being ‘stealthed’. She has mutliple websites, and many pictures on the internet. This is a false accusation.

    You claim they are ‘unable to pass’ as a reason for their ‘stealth’ existence online. These are transvestite terms that don’t apply to women, but as far as physical features go, i have seen several of these women. And i hope to be just half as fortunate as they are when time goes by.

    You call them ugly. This is a false accusation.

    i haven’t seen the ‘lingerie’ video. But that kind of thing is precisely what i strive to counter in my life; the image of a transsexual woman as nothing more than a prostitute or sex-industry worker.

    i have no moral problem with sex work.

    But those few transsexuals that engage in it are casting a disproportionate shadow on the vast majority of transsexual women who do not. Let alone the bad light cast upon us by sexually-motivated transgenders and transvestites.

    Which means you simply don’t give a damn what harm your actions bring to women everywhere, or what stereo-types you perpetuate.

    But that’s misogyny.

  73. anoldfriend says:

    It always ends this way;
    Tee-Gees who see themselves as successful ignore us or the Tee-Gee community.

    This exchange was living proof of my belief that unsuccessful people, the ones who know they are unsuccessful can’t stand to be around successful people.

    The big lie has always been “We” are not out and proud because of shame, they keep repeating that lie and it still doesn’t stick. \

    DB should have never left USENET.

    ATG;
    You are the exception to the rule, many of us including a friend who use to post in these parts received nothing but misery for being out about her transition.

    She has moved out of state and is living a happy and comfortable life.

  74. Jessica says:

    Thank you, Aria, but it is clear I’m not welcome here.

    Particularly when special exemptions are made from the **never be out** rule that determines who is **Tee-Gee**–but not for me.

    I started reading here because I was interested in the theory you post–unlike you, apparently, my forays into theory are not, as posted in various comments, “wonderful and insightful”–because this is what I do; and I work at putting theory into action. Which, it seems, is also not allowed.

    It is more than clear marginalized people, particularly those who are aware of, even revel, in their marginalization seek to find more secure support than anything in themselves by casting out those who define WHAT THEY ARE NOT.

    That is, me.

    But then the special exemption aof gave atg rather calls this into question. This has nothing to do with atg, as I have already communicated with her off-list.

    And all the rhetoric–which I predicted previously in this thread–would take aim at me, did. And all with such unrestrained glee! Again, defining the in-group by defining the out-group. What a slender reed such self understanding must be, if the only way to sustain it is to attack, well, in this case, me!

    This thing about exceptions may well be where the whole theory thing collapses.

    But then, I’ve already been cast beyond the pale and what I have to say is, what, rambling **Tee-Gee** nonsense. Writing for me has always been something of a way finding out, though I’ve learned a few other things along the way.

    So, I write this basically for myself, and the few others who don’t feel so threatened–how could I threaten anyone?–who have satisfying, happy lives, REGARDLESS of who they are.

    If that is not the goal of your life, maybe it is why do what you have done above–regardless of whether it has been erased.

    And it certainly will do nothing for those who after us–but then, that is clearly of little concern here, either–except for the pleasure of posting as above.

  75. anoldfriend says:

    Actually Christine;
    You and I met on USENET, You just don’t know who I am, and I would like to keep it that way.
    You did stumble upon USENET four times from 1996-2001. I bailed out for the last time in 2002, anybody who has been around for longer than 10 years has been on the USENET lists for a time. Some people can’t give it up and move on. What ruined A.S.SRS. was the Tee-Gees, and internet shut-ins who invaded the place. The list should have been a moderated list.

    Christine you should probably read ATG’s blog and some of her comments on the classic TS (feel to read as real TS sites if you wish) and you would understand, we don’t tolerate her, she is one of us. The difference is she sees the world through a slightly different set of eyes.

    Pardon us if we don’t make such a big deal out of cloths as you or others might. Some of us do enjoy the finer things in clothing life we like most other females don’t make a public statement of it. I have to ask, who do you see bragging about their underwear other than that metro-sexual commercial with MJ in it. Underwear commercials are, well so 70’s. If that is where you feel most comfortable that is fine, some of us are more comfortable with keeping with the times. Remember the 70’s ended 30 years ago and most of us from that time have moved on. As for Dr Laura she has the right to her opinion, the Bible on the other hand and more the to the point the Old Testimate stands with us by saying that if we have an issue with our body we are to address it. I might also add that no where in the Bible doe is it say the Gays will go to hell for who they are. If you know where to find them there are a few Bible College graduates who have transitioned and can hold their own against the uninformed fundies.

    In reference to the Eleanor Roosevelt quote, We don’t feel inferior, quite the contrary we are comfortable in our skin and with our position in the female half of society.

    All we ask is if you can’t be like us don’t hijack out identity.
    Is that really too much to ask for?

  76. Joanne says:

    Civil Tongue?

    So Christine Rocks in and starts the ball rolling with this little gem. There were a lot of ways to state her case. Christine chose this way.

    That the author and posters can’t even honor Christine Daniels in death and instead use her male name — and I know the hatred and ignorance that forced her to do it — is an insult I’d expect from a mainstream blog and not from one dedicated to “true” transsexuals.

    Nobody was rude back – though there was reason to be so. AB’s response was perfectly reasonable – it even invited Christine to explain why the original post was offensive..

    Why wouldn’t you honor this person’s wishes, not to mention how he lived his life? He chose to be known as Mike, why is that not respected by transgender activists? This seems like a double standard if there is no explanation forthcoming.

    Christine’s reply starts out reasonably enough, with this opening sentence:

    Why can’t I call Christine “Mike”? Because I know what it’s like to detransition due to a hateful world makes it impossible to believe you will ever be happy as a woman.

    Its problem is that it imputes a motive to Penner’s de-transition without any evidence to support the assumption. It tells us about Christine’s experience – not the experience of the individual at the centre of the discussion.

    The penultimate paragraph to this post reads:

    I find it reprehensible you’d use her tragic suicide to prop up your purist “classic” transsexual, anti-transgender dogma. It’s as contemptible as the ghouls of Westboro Baptist who picketed Matthew Shepherd’s funeral.

    I don’t doubt that these are Christine’s deeply held opinions. But, again, there were other, less provocative ways of stating her case. These words had two effects: (1) they set the frame-work for the minor flame-war that followed and, (2) they removed any claim Christine possibly had to either a moral high ground or a claim as arbiter of civility.

    Everything that followed, followed because of Christine’s stated attitudes. She brought them in with her when she came, as did her equally belligerent friend DB – whoever that individual may be.

    Reading through these posts I can find few if any attempts from either of them to engage in a rational discussion. Most of their posts are accompanied by barbed comments primarily intended, it seems, to ensure that didn’t happen. Perhaps one of the most bizarre examples was this.

    Their belief system is just as precious to them as any religious fundamentalist. This is why they pile on anyone with the temerity to challenge their views, which they defend with ferocity. They *must* shoot down, ridicule or otherwise “debunk” anyone who challenges their One Truth Faith. Their entire identity depends on this.

    Here all the charges that identity sceptics (myself included) have levelled at ideological transgenderism for years, were gathered together into a verbal mud-pie and thrown back at other posters. There was no recognition of the fact that most of us have spent years demanding that empirical science supplant the identity paradigm – the self-same paradigm that has provided the rational for almost forty years of intersex genital mutilations and so-called gender assignments.

    Note: The charges have been leveled at the paradigm, rather than personally, its supporters

    As an OII board member I, personally, spend much time dealing with the obscene and damaging consequences of these beliefs. The duplicity of Christine’s allegations in this regard are particularly meaningful when it is understood that the dogma she and DB embrace so closely is very same dogma that that permits the destruction of so many human futures.

    The notion that they are not purveyors of ideology and dogma, whilst those who fight to overturn is effects are, beggars rationality and demonstrates how out of touch both individuals (Christine & DB) are with either humanity or reality.

    Personally I am tired of the pair of them. They have nothing to contribute to a rational discussion other than their own playground brand of toxicity. This largely involves pointing the finger at everybody else, jumping up down outrageously and going “nya! nya! nya” at anyone with an alternative viewpoint.

  77. Leigh says:

    Joanne ..

    Oh yes and don’t you love that when oldfriend softens and offers a hand, christine returns a 10 line reply in which there are 3 attacks.

    These 2 are a waste of time.

    And Jessica.. well Jessica don’t get it at all. Thats the problem with the TG mentality, everyone is out to get you, society, employers, shop keepers, bathroom attendants, the folks next door and of course every damn transsexual woman that ever went before and made it through the bizarre and the nutcases and the psychiatrists and life itself.

    But what the hell do WE know .. If you want REAL GOOD ADVICE .. go ask a crossdressing transvestite, a genderqueer man or a non-op transgender! Tell you anything you want to hear. Loser!

  78. anoldfriend says:

    I’m confused Leigh, what did I do wrong???

  79. Marie says:

    It is all but impossible to do this if you wear 50 years of baggage around your neck. You have to make as clean a break for your own mental and emotional growth as a woman, or all you end up doing is continuing to live that half-life that we all want to leave behind.

    Meaning what, in practical terms? In your experience, is it necessary to literally cut off all connections with everyone who knew us “from before” and start over somewhere else? New job, new friends, new neighbors? Is that what most of you eventually felt you had to do?

  80. Leigh says:

    not you oldfriend ..

  81. Joanne says:

    No, not you …

    I’m confused Leigh, what did I do wrong???

    … unless you think trying to be reasonable with an identity fanatic is wrong?

  82. anoldfriend says:

    Thanks Leigh; I wasn’t quite sure what was going on thats all.

  83. anoldfriend says:

    Marie;
    Back 50 years ago that is what was recommended but back then if you were 50 or so you almost couldn’t find a therapist that would write you a letter.

    Even in this day and age transitioning on the job can be difficult, some of us had to give up jobs we held for 20 years. I didn’t I was lucky. An old friend went through 3 jobs before finally settling into her post transition job.

    What do you do about family who say “you will always be XXX in my eyes”. My family did have problems with my transition and we parted company. I can’t blame them it’s difficult to deal with someone transitioning away from what yo ualways knew them as and to a person you have to get to know all over again. Sometimes patients and compassion go a long way toward preserving relations between friends and family.

    You are trying to change, they may drag their feet and make it hard for you to make the needed changes, making a clean break is often the only alternative.

  84. Leigh says:

    Maria

    .. for me it was even a new country. In the midst of transition in the UK I used up the last of my savings on a one way ticket to Los Angeles, America. I arrived virtually penniless, no employment, no prospects, no friends, no support, sold my blood to eat, never to return.

    Needs Must …. Good luck!

  85. Sara says:

    Leigh, that makes my drive to Phoenix from Los Angeles (for a job that I was hired for over the phone, and I looked rough) with nothing but my clothes packed into my Toyota Corolla look like a walk in the park.

    Marie, sometimes it’s the only way to live independently and freely … a new life demands new places, new experiences, new people. Plus for me I was bound and determined to make it on my own, standing on my own two feet. Failure was not an option. Small failures happened, but the bigger picture of living my female life independently and with no connection to anything in my past life was a driving force. There was (and is still) no room for compromise on this matter. Also, I treated it as a big adventure! Why not?! I had fun too … never knowing what’s around the next corner is a great way to live for anyone!

    I know it doesn’t work for everyone. But if you are serious about finishing your transition and moving on with your life it’s a great way to go IMHO.

    Sara …

  86. Marie says:

    I almost envy people who have had problems, who “had” to relocate, who had incentive to do so.

    Ironically, my “problem” is that nothing happened when I transitioned a few years ago (all documents changed, SRS, I pass fine, everything is done). Work didn’t care, friends didn’t care, family is fine with it. I married a woman 20 years ago, both of us realizing later that I was looking for a best friend more than a lover, and now despite everything we’re probably better friends now than ever (still married, just not intimate – and never really were).

    BUT.

    Despite how good everything is, despite not having any problems with anyone, I can’t help but feel like I’m still stuck in “his” life, “his” roles, “his” obligations. I feel like a widow who’s inherited the debts and duties of her deceased husband.

    As good and problem-free as my life is, it doesn’t feel like MY life. I’m surrounded by people who knew me from Before, and although everyone is “accepting,” I’ve come to feel that “acceptance” isn’t the same as just BEing. I’ll forever be competing with that old image, with memories of “him.” I’m forever saddled with “used to be [male name]” stuck to my forehead.

    And while moving doesn’t mean people won’t find out about my past eventually, at least new people don’t have actual memories, actual experiences of the prior me to color their perceptions of who I am now.

    I’ve noticed that I feel the most “normal” whenever I’m meeting new people, working with strangers, going to meetings… anything with strangers or friends of friends. Their expectations align with who I am.

    But then I come home to neighbors and friends, or go to work with coworkers who’ve known me for years, and I feel so humiliated, so fake. Pronoun “slips” still happen on rare occasion. I may be female, but I’m still the “husband” as far as provider expectations go. I’m still the “tech guy” as far as job obligations go. I’m JUST a set of roles and obligations now, performed robotically, with no hope of anything for ME now. A ghost within my own life.

    But do people change over time? Will that old image of me fade in their minds, replaced by who I am now? Or am I doomed to forever be a changeling with them?

    Or is the only way to truly finish this, to truly “walk the walk,” being to make it on my own now, starting over, new friends, new job, everything starting out as who I am now rather than riding the (honorary) coattails of male privilege I seem to be doing now?

  87. Leigh says:

    Marie ..

    Every once in a decade or so, I have been back to the UK. We were a tight family and there was no animosity toward. The first visit was after 20 years had passed, the most recent with my new husband. I swear, NOTHING changed, nothing at all. I am to them no older, no different, no better and no worse than the brother that flew away 30 years ago. A great huge pink elephant in the room that people avoided tripping over. They don’t even mention it. Not a word of whats been going on in my life all those years, not a word. It’s like, sureal is the best way to describe it. After the last trip I announced that I shall never be back again, that I am done with them.

    Strangely .. I feel MUCH better now!

  88. Sibyl says:

    Maria,

    In a word? Yes!

    But what does yes mean? Does it mean you have to be Leigh? Hop on a plane and start fresh? If you’ve got the Moxie , and can, there are very real advantages to her method but for most of us, we’re not in a place where things sever quite so easily. Particularly when transition happens later in life with all the years of baggage we accumulated. So while there are required degrees of separation and the further you go towards completion the more of them there are. It comes down to when you do it rather than if!
    .
    Obviously the first level of separation would be any toxic connections and they must be severed as quickly as possible, no matter who they are with. Why do you need anyone in your life even for a minute whose goal stated or unstated is to impede you? Gone!

    Separation of job is another that’s pretty major. We all have to work during transition to keep body and soul together, but once done, its time to move on and find a new place to work if not a whole new field… You spend a third of you life working and really, its simply asking too much of co-workers and clients to forget the old you as if it never happened… So unless you change jobs you are forever stuck with the constant reminders, the hushed conversations, the slipped pronouns and the erosion of self-worth this brings. Again this is not easy, changing jobs and particularly if it means careers, may mean a change in circumstances and earning potential (welcome to the glass ceiling) but it has to happen, and again. You have your memories of the old person there too… hard to get rid of with all the constant reminders round you!

    The first two must be done and done with purpose but you will find as you progress, most of your connections simply fall by the wayside if you are making a concerted effort to remedy your situation. And why not? You’re not the person they knew! And on your part, you’ve no real relationship to them now other than a faded history and… well… it’s just not your history is it! So, they too are gone

    Family is harder and we must make hard choices with them… Sometimes it is they who sever the tie… They simply cannot deal with “you” harsh of them but honest. But sometimes you have to be the one who cuts the ties because love them or not they are a reminder, an anchor to a past that is not you! Again harsh but equally honest and so this may mean you let things slide with them to the occasional card, call or less… It hurts but rarely is there a way round it.

    Where you live? Same thing as the job it’s a gotta do! I take it you do not live off in the desert by yourself so you have neighbor’s right? The person they knew was someone else and they are not going to make the jump to a new you but more so YOU have memories too and they will impede you as well. So it’s yes to a new place to live…

    Humm! I guess no matter how you slice it, it all comes down to one choice, not of keeping the ties to your past but are you a dive head first into the cold water type like Leigh or

  89. Sibyl says:

    or are you a walk into the cold water slowly woman like me?

    (have no idea where that last line when when I sumitted it!)

  90. Sara says:

    Marie,

    Anoldfriend, Leigh, and Sibyl gave great responses and different (yet also similar) perspectives on the issue. But as I re-read your honest and poignant post, I saw that you already know.

    You’ve answered your own question.

    Sara …

  91. Marie says:

    But as I re-read your honest and poignant post, I saw that you already know.

    You’ve answered your own question.

    Sigh.

    I sometimes think a reason we ask questions is just to avoid or delay facing the consequences of what we already know.

    I did that for years when “debating” transitioning, and I fear I’m doing it again now 😦

    Thank you, everyone…

  92. Joanne says:

    Or is the only way to truly finish this, to truly “walk the walk,” being to make it on my own now, starting over, new friends, new job, everything starting out as who I am now rather than riding the (honorary) coattails of male privilege I seem to be doing now?

    Kiaora from New Zealand Marie.

    Thing is, you can clean out the baggage from your own personal narrative of self. But everyone around you, who has been associated with you, also has a narrative that incorporates other, different images of you.

    You can’t edit or change those.

    Last time my female progenitor spoke to me was thirty odd years ago. She phoned one night and spent around twenty minutes trying to persuade me to top myself. She was dead serious if you’ll excuse the pun.

    The call came after a ‘family’ conference had decided to take that action.

    They weren’t hard to leave.

    She died in 1997. It was the last time I had any contact with the siblings. One got a friend in the police to track me down and tell me their mother was dying. When they realized I hadn’t been ‘cured’ they refused any further contact. A male sibling threatened to beat me within an inch of my life if I showed at their mother’s funeral.

    For me turning my back on the past was easy. My past and me are divorced by mutual consent. I remember it. I want no further part of it. Hopefully it wants no further part of me.

    I wish you well 🙂

  93. catkisser says:

    Marie, when I transitioned I wanted what you have. It was not in the cards for me, I lost my business, my home, most of my family and all my circle of friends I’d maintained for thirty years after college….all at once. In retrospect, it was a Goddess blessing I did not understand but I cannot answer this for anyone else.

    My sister, her family, my old circle of friends are still lost to me all these years later. Perhaps you can build a new life and maintain some contact with the old but you have to have that new life to actually finish transition is my take on it. Of course, free advice is worth every penny you pay for it and the decision is yours, not ours.

  94. ‘Keeping a civil tongue’ implies that i am engaged in some sort of debate with you to begin with. i am not. i am simply refuting false statement.

    i was not around for usenet. The only thing i find more sad about the past is the need some people have to keep dragging it up and living in it now.

    Constantly insulting people by calling them a terrorist is nothing but a clear-cut case of blunt-force trolling. Period.

    It, like sarcasm, is the recourse of a weak mind.

    “Maybe you’re like that one black friend that Ivy League graduates keep around as proof of how unprejudiced and “liberal” they are.”

    Now you’re insulting me by calling me a token figure, and by extension insulting my intelligence.

    That, like all of your other insults against me, is a new one as well.

    Ah well. When indiscriminately shoving people around to provoke a fight, at least be imaginative, right?

    “And remember that if you ever piss them off, remember how they can get.”

    Actually, that’s already been done before. i ‘pissed off’ (as you say) TG activists, and they tried to silence and suppress me. i ‘pissed off’ some people here like Leigh, and now call some of them friends.

    “BTW, I find it curious that you take such *pride* in what an unkind person might call a “frumpy” wardrobe.”

    Now you’re insulting my choice of clothes. And to be clear, i took no ‘pride’ in anything. It was brought up, so i gave an honest answer.

    i dress exactly like my mother. We often trade clothes, in fact. So by extension you’ve insulted her as well as me. Never had that done before.

    Only a small number of women in the general populace purchase and wear things such as those found in Victoria’s Secret. And of those that do, most are typically younger.

    This is no condemnation of those many women who don’t; it is simply an established pattern of behavior in our culture.

    Transvestites are typically obsessed with such garments, and when coupled with some form of exhibitionism (to be made ‘transgender’), they compulsively demonstrate their obsession in public, and online.

    With sexual pictures. Or videos. Like yours.

    As for the financial state of the ‘fashion industry’, and Victoria’s Secret in particular, i joined the boycott campaign against them quite some time ago.

    It’s difficult to feel ‘in the mood’ for my boyfriend, if i’m wearing something i know was hand-sewn by under-paid, underage children. Many women i know feel the same way.

    The mileage on your morality may vary.

    “Phyllis Schlafly or Dr. Laura”

    You have seen no pictures of any of these women, so clearly this insult to style is directed at me.

    Hmm. Not sure what to say about that. i suppose people will look through pictures i’ve posted and decide for themselves.

    It’s possible that it *wasn’t* directed toward me.

    But then that would mean you were making some completely blind, ignorant assumptions about people you’ve never seen.

    So that can’t possibly be it.

    “mandated personal conformity”

    Oh yeah. i am definitely a conformist. i swear.

    “Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

    You have fallen victim to your own irony.

    Along with everyone else who has fallen prey to the transgender construct. That’s a neat hat-trick i don’t see too often.

    Congratulations.

  95. Aria Blue says:

    Yes Beatty is one of those old die-hards who will try every trick in the book. All that nonsense about the litmus test of not being “out” is designed to keep potential recruits for the TG cause from seeing the light. It is this false dichotomy, presented wrapped in terror, that has allowed the TG construct to flourish at the expense of anyone who has needed to transition since it was created.

    Everyone has a time during transition, or correction, when they can’t help but be “out”. It is a very difficult phase, and the supporters of the transgender construct use those negative feelings to instill fear. They like to play with the emotions of the transitioner and mess with her head.

    The truth is that there is no litmus test. There is a time when someone is in “correction”, and there is a time after. It’s a natural process for any woman who goes through this. It’s also a natural process of questioning and getting to your own answers. Leave behind what must be left behind. Take with you what you can that does not interfere with your womanhood. Each person has their own answers, and there is no one who can tell you what is right. I happen to believe that the best, happiest transitions are those that make the cleanest break. But arriving at this conclusion is painful for some.

    Don’t let differences of opinion on minor issues drive you back into the arms of the TV’s. We all go it alone in real life anyway, there is no reason to politicize transition. Also, there are alternatives- there are more than two choices. The last thing you need in your transition is to become a victim of that ugly dogma.

    Question “authority”.

  96. Joanne says:

    Sacre Bleu! What on earth is this all about?

  97. Aria Blue says:

    This is exactly what I’m talking about. People like DB need help with their issues, they don’t need people filling their heads with nonsense about TG transition. DB is a perfect example of who the TG are.

  98. Sara says:

    Wow. “Nazi” always = EPIC FAIL. I just feel sorry for this person.

    Sara …

  99. Zoë Suzanna says:

    Wow DB – yep calling people hateful names is a sure way to get along. Your threats are pathetic and show your maturity level in spades.

    If you don’t like Aria’s viewpoints – fine – who cares? You can go on your merry way – no one is stopping you…

  100. Sibyl says:

    Nazi Jew Jim Jones?

    DB that has got to be one of the more creative if confused far right field invectives I’ve ever come across… the mind simply boggles! Would a person so described be inclined to stand on the street corner and denounce themselves on a bullhorn while working up a batch of extra special Kool-Aid?

    “I hate me! I hate me! Now here, me, drink this before the FBI arrives…

    Does this also require one to wear an aluminum foil helmet to keep the CIA from reading their thoughts!

    Come on DB help a girl out… What do you wear to complete the ensemble when YOU go out? Does it have to be brown and yellow? I don’t know about Aria, but I’m figuring if she is one, (some? many?) so am I and neither brown or yellow are my best colors by a long shot. You of all people gotta know how much they both clash with aluminum foil and sun glasses!

    What about the Kool Aid? Hum? Tell me that Smarty Pants! What about THE KOOL AID! I mean what sort of cups do you use, Paper? Plastic, or Styrofoam to keep it cold? Do you have to get them imprinted with a swastika cross and the star of david, and in what order? Or will plain do in a pinch? Style is everything when it’s your own final solution one is plotting so please DB, how about a bit of guidance from a big sister/bigbrother who has obviously been there done that!

  101. We’re fat, ugly and cowardly?

    Having met Aria in person, i can say that she is in fact *not* fat, ugly or cowardly.

    But then again, my opinion may be biased, since i wished that i looked more like her. And we also look like we could be vaguely related.

    i mean, ugly is subjective. i’ll absorb that for myself, since i feel that way sometimes. But fat? 5’8″ and 128lbs is fat? And cowardly?

    i’ve faced things in my life that most people wouldn’t even believe.

    ‘Jim Jones cult’. What an unfortunately-balanced individual.

    Wait.

    Was there something in the zinfandel you poured for me, Aria? Did you slip me something? Maybe i’m agreeing with you under mind-control and just don’t know it….

  102. Joanne says:

    It wasn’t all bad. One good bit was this:

    I reject transsexual, I reject anything your band of ugly , fat cowardly men promote.

    I can take the last few words on the chin, provided DB honors his/her commitment and acts on the first three. Immediately wouldn’t be too soon.

    I wonder whether s/he’ll accuse us of having WMD’s before the invasion?

  103. Aria Blue says:

    If the TG’s think we are Nazis for recognizing these standards, how do you suppose they feel about the 99.99% of humanity that is born normal and feels the same way?

  104. Joanne says:

    Hi GQ 🙂

    It can be unsatisfactory to pick out small ‘cuts’ from a post as long as yours, mainly because the ‘cut’ loses context in the process.

    I do so now, reluctantly. But I do want to respond to this:

    So it is a really a treat to be able to get the type of feedback that is available here even if it is sometimes hard to take. I would prefer for a bunch of CTs to tell me that they don’t think that I am really TS rather than make a stupid mistake and end up being a male with tits running around and spouting how I am “female”.

    Speaking personally – not for anybody else – its not my place to ‘tell’ anybody who or what they are.

    Each human is an individual and independent being. Each should discover themselves for themselves if given the space and opportunity.

    Attempts to Impose constructed identities and dubious narratives is not conducive to any journey of self discovery and I will not engage in such behaviors. Nor will I condone others who attempt to do so.

    If that makes me or any of the other women who come together on this, and other blogs, all the the things DB accuses us of being, then I suspect that individual’s own dogmas and insecurities are more the problem than my own.

    As to yours, GQ, as with the others, I hope you find your answers. If anything I have to say aids you in that search then I am rewarded by the insights I was able to invoke.

    If you find your answer eventually in transgender I will toast your future happiness. I would only ask that you respect our differences.

    I wish that others would learn to do the same.

    Kiaora

  105. cassandraspeaks says:

    GQ, I can only say thank you for this post. I am aware you have posted on my own blog and I will answer you there directly as soon as time allows.

    I have been a professional counsellor in this field and one of the things you are trained to do is to be non directive. What that means is to not tell someone who they are or what category they fit into. What we do is encourage a person to ask questions of themselves and find their own answer as it applies to them.

    This is a silly analogy but if you think you are a sheep the best thing to do is to go stand in a field of sheep and measure yourself against the other sheep. That way you will know wether or not you are indeed a sheep.

    Judging by the length and style of your posts you are clearly a deep thinker and I suspect sensitive in nature. You must know by now that your presence here is as welcome as the springtime and we will do everything possible to support your quest to find yourself. What you seek is not easy and there is a wealth of misinformation out there as I am sure you have found out.

    None of us here hate any individual TG or their predicament. It is simply that their issues are nothing like ours and we resent, strongly resent being forced to identify as something we are not for anothers agenda and political expediancy. If they were to seek support and recognise difference even now they would get a totally different response to the one Christine Beatty and DB did. If those two were to be more curteous they too would even now receive a different response. We are women and naturally compassionate. However being women does not mean anyone has a right to own us or tell us what to do or what to think.

    GQ I promise (and I know the others will feel the same) if we can help you, we will of that you can be sure.

  106. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Oh wow, DB invoked Godwin’s Law. What a surprise! And Christine Beatty, a shining star in transdom. I had the misfortune of meeting one of your “clients” in an LA club and witnessing your “handiwork”. I didn’t know who to feel more sorry for, that guy or you.

  107. Zoë Suzanna says:

    During my tenure as a Buddhist monastic traveling the remote regions of Nepal, my teacher pointed something out to me.

    There was a festival going on and people were enjoying themselves. However, there was a deranged man running around spouting crazy rants, running around and around as though in need of attention. However, the locals just plain ignored him and eventually he went away.

    It seems DB’s fragile ego is in need of boosting and thus all the insults. There is no need to debate DB for we all can see he has lost it.

    I would be concerned about actual threats of harm:

    “Don’t make me hurt you *BADLY* ATG.” -DB

    DB – be careful when making threats – they can land you in jail or worse…

  108. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Umm DB, I was directing that particular comment (about her “client”) towards Christine. So, unless you are using a pseudonym, which I’m beginning to believe, MYOB please. Personally, I think you’re going to be ignored here, so maybe finding another blog to infect might be a really good idea at this point.

    Just sayin’

  109. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Thank you, Aria. I was beginning to think that “DB” wasn’t who we think he was.

  110. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Hey brainiac, several of us are out. Try using some of your supergenius powers and find us.

  111. lisalee18wheeler says:

    Don’t you have some place else you could go play?

  112. lisalee18wheeler says:

    “Yeah , like they would be hard to find with their beards and all DB you idiot !”

    Your words.

  113. zoesuzanna says:

    DB,

    You missed my point and my point wasn’t directed at you anyway – it was to the rest of us and since I seem unable to make my point clear via analogy….

    -Ignore him and he will go away….

    In reference to making threats you said this “Your imagination is too limited.”

    Never underestimate people you don’t know….You can be found via your IP address and to be even more clear – Some of us will be happy to turn you over to the authorities if you attempt to carry through on your threats… others here will cheerfully take care of you themselves if you come after them….

    Your macho attitude reminds me of a YouTube video where two rednecks were following around a couple in a BMW – harassing them and eventually trapped them in a cul-de-sac and were boasting on camera how they were going to kick the crap out of the driver and do worse to the girlfriend…they had their bats and camera in hand to film their “fun” – and low and behold the driver of the BMW gets out of the car with a gun in his hand. That pretty much ended their macho shit…

    I am once again saying – be careful who you mess with here – don’t expect to be successful in carrying through with your threats…

  114. happyjb says:

    Yeah you macho TEEGEE we can track you ! BE careful who you Messs with or we will kill you in your sleeep TGEEEEEE !!!! DEad asa a doorse nailee!

  115. Men.

    When they can’t intimidate, they terrorize. When terror doesn’t work, they subjugate through violence.

    The was the one long experience i called ‘childhood. My mother and i know it well.

    Funny thing is, none of it worked. We survived. i’m all grown up now. And learned some things in the process.

    Firearms and large, over-protective boyfriend aside, i’m helpless.

    i swear.

    • lisalee18wheeler says:

      Not.

    • joanne says:

      Some of you seemed to know who DB is. I have no idea. But the claim to have accessed SRS absolutely staggers me if its true.

      Generally speaking I try to follow the OII principles of not policing identities. But the longer that performance continued the more impossible it became not to.

      I cannot fathom how anyone can be so seriously deluded as to think he can sell himself as a female in public spaces whilst exhibiting behaviors like that.

      I swear a cloud of testosterone wafted from the screen with each new post.

      Has he really had SRS as he claims? – how on earth could that be allowed to happen?

  116. lisalee18wheeler says:

    DB is the same as most the men I hear on the CB. All talk and no action. Very ignorable.