A definitive test for transsexualism

The single defining characteristic of transsexual syndrome is the complete and total rejection of the of one’s reproductive sex. Specifically, the physical “markers” caused by male- or female-typical hormone milieus as a person matures cause a feeling of horror and revulsion. The most important “marker” of course being the genitalia. This is why there can be no such thing as a “non op” transsexual. If a person does not experience the symptom of having a problematic physical condition, i.e. rejecting the “markers” on their body, then it is not transsexualism. This is also why phrases like “woman trapped in a man’s body” do not really make sense to the person suffering from transsexualism: It is my body, I am a woman… things are just messed up and need to be fixed. Phrases designed for gay men 100 years ago should be cast aside.

There has been great difficulty in isolating this syndrome in the brain up until recently. There have been some interesting differences found in the hypothalamus, which point to biological causation. There have also been some recent in vivo studies done with the emerging fMRI technology that show the actual operation of the brain as being “cross sexed” with respect to reproductive sex. But the answer remains elusive because we continue to remain mired in the gender paradigm.

The problem is that even though these scientists are approaching the issue from a neurological perspective, they overlay social concepts of “gender” onto the results and indeed even predicate some of the work on it. In certain cases, they look for “gender markers” in the brain and seek out behavioral roots in white and gray matter. While this may be fascinating in a general sense to understand the differences between men and women, it does little to help a diagnosis of transsexualism.

There is so much overlap in many of the aspects of the brain between the (reproductive) sexes and without a more laser-like focus on specifics it is unlikely we will see anything like a “man brain” or “woman brain” model developed for quite some time. Without looking at what makes the brains truly dichotomous, and instead focusing on broad cognitive factors that exhibit themselves as behavior, we are stuck at the level of regarding everything on a sliding scale. This of course feeds into the less-than-helpful gender paradigm.

The fMRI technology can be put to more interesting uses in this area. Recently, a researcher hypothesized that the rejection of the primary “sex marker”, the penis, by “MtF transsexuals” was due to its not having a representation in the brain. Post operatively, transsexual women do not experience “phantom limb” after correction. This is a common characteristic of all those who experience “true”, or “classic” transsexualism. The findings indicate quite simply that the penis is not recognized by the brain as it is in males, giving us our first clue about the real transsexual condition. This of course could lead to all sorts of problems such as the perception of deformity, etc. This is transsexualism in a nutshell.

Using this as the fundamental diagnostic criterion a series of studies could be done to model the rest of the “transsexual brain” to look for other commonalities and finally unlock the truth behind transsexual syndrome. A more comprehensive model of the brain would follow, exposing areas that are closer to absolute in their dimorphism and leaving aside those with too much overlap to be of use. This could be carried out in conjunction with post-mortem studies cross referenced to relate the function being observed to physical structures being cataloged in a laboratory setting.

In the meantime, knowledge of this test could be used to aid diagnosis and fast track those who need surgery. Having a physiological test for a (now) physiological problem would have a greatly beneficial effect on efforts to have transsexualism removed from the mental disorder category. We completely remove the identity paradigm from our situation. No more hack sexologists trying to rule us.

Medical practitioners could use this one-to-one relationship of test-to-surgical-need to change the nature of how transsexualism is treated by insurance companies, reinforcing the stance that the AMA recently took. In doing this, they open the pathway for broad reimbursement of treatment as we now have a physical test for a physical malady. This is a strong case for insurance coverage.

In the process of placing it squarely in the medical realm, we also remove transsexualism completely from the gay world. Everyone will finally be able to see that this is not a “gender” or sexual orientation issue, because being gay does not require any treatment.

The association of natural sexual orientation with the physiological pathology of transsexualism has been entirely harmful to the equal rights movement for lesbian women and gay men. As a further result, the discovery of the real transsexual condition by medicine would stop the co-option of Intersex by the remains of the discredited gay lobby, as the wall of separation comes crashing down and it becomes politically impossible to reach through TS to get to IS. This should help spur the creation of a new rights movement to replace the GLBT with something that works. Achieving this separate state stands to benefit everybody involved in the politics here.

Those who do show this “representation of the penis” in the brain when tested could still access “gender change” through existing GID protocols, up to and including surgery if indicated by psychiatrists and psychologists. Or as more and more “classic transsexual” people have been forced to do, via “elective” surgery overseas.

It is time that those of us who were born to difference once again become the focus of the treatment designed to help us. Catering to the needs of non-transsexual people has wreaked havoc on our already-poor public image and has decimated the system put in place to help us. We have done enough tearing down over the years. Now it’s time to start building again.


39 Responses to A definitive test for transsexualism

  1. marie931 says:

    Can you describe the “phantom penis” concept more? Does that mean literally feeling as if the penis still exists, intact, as it did before surgery?

    • Aria Blue says:

      Apparently so, as a sort of feeling that comes and goes for men who have been injured in accidents or lost the organ to cancer and that sort of thing. But that’s not the most important part.

      The scans can show a direct connection between nerve stimulation in that organ and a response in a particular brain area. In transsexual women that does not occur. The phantom penis issue was just a clue as to what to look for.

      I think anyone who has had the surgery to cure their problem will know what I am talking about when I refer to the sort of instant shift that happens after surgery. It cures that problem down there in a way that those who don’t deal with transsexualism won’t comprehend. I believe this has something to do with that brain’s ability to perceive particular types of nerves and nerve clusters in 3D space, but of course that explanation is just conjecture at this point.

      Swaab talks about these things in terms of neural “circuits”, and scientists are just starting to explore some of them. It’s really very interesting.

  2. catkisser says:

    Yes, that’s exactly it. And I can tell you first hand about phantom missing parts as I lost 1/2 of the index finger of my left hand in an industrial accident…and to this day can feel it.

    The “marker” I theorized and is quietly in use by some psychiatrists after testing was based on the idea that neurological wiring to the genitals of men and women are different and classic (neurologically intersexed) transsexual women will demonstrate female typical sexual response. And it works……with near perfect accuracy as it turns out. Add estrogen to a pre op body and viola, the differences become immediately apparent.

    • zoebrain says:

      I don’t know if that applies to everyone. It certainly applied to me.

      My brain may be partly feminised in some areas, somewhat masculinised in others… but those areas were strongly and stereotypically 100% woman.

      The feeling of normalcy after reconstruction was – I can’t describe it. Just micturating no longer required conscious thought. Device drivers and peripherals finally matched. A discomfort, a feeling of terrible wrongness I’d lived with all my life… evaporated. All the writings about “getting in touch with your own body” finally made sense.

      I just think that masculinity or femininity involves more than just genitalia. OK, in my case, that was overwhelmingly the most significant factor, but I can’t universalise my own experience to others. In terms of socially constructed gender, I’m not terribly feminine at all – nor do I want to be. In terms of neurological sex, very much so, and whether I want to be or not is immaterial. It’s something you are, or are not. A significant part of what is labelled “gendered behaviour” – perhaps 10%, perhaps 20% – is nothing of the sort. It’s sexed behaviour.

  3. leighspov says:

    Very interesting indeed!

    Is a white paper forthcoming or is this the white paper. Seriously though, if this sort of thing could become scientific evidence we will all benefit.

    However, I am pessimistic that will become the case.

    • catkisser says:

      Leigh, let’s be brutally honest here….
      To date more than 300 neurological studies, separate and distinct ones, has shown beyond any possible doubt that classic transsexuals are neurological (entire central nervous system) intersexed. To date, every time I bring that up any where near TGs they scream bloody blue murder that it ain’t so…..and if they have anything at all beyond that, it’s the criticisms made of the original BSTc studies that were actually addressed by follow ups by the same group!

      When I pointed ou that this meant immediate full civil rights coverage (not a few jobs only) right now under the ADA, they screamed I was lying. When I produced a legal opinion from the civil rights division of the US Dept of Justice confirming that, they then said no transsexual should have civil rights until every wanking crossdresser got them, which begs the questions of exactly what civil rights are denied to men, even if they play dressup and wack off.

      They are the enemy, not the right, not the religious nutcases, the TGs

      • leighspov says:

        Well Cat .. I am a bit of a synical realist unfortunatly. As you point out, over 300 studies have shown the CT-intersex link. All of that has been poo-pood by the TG and any time it is mentioned it is struck down.

        Also as Joanne points out below, those that hold the keys to the doors don’t actually want a test and will probably claim it inconclusive if one is devised, no matter its validity.

        Point of fact recently Autumn Sandeen had a klienfelters test performed. During the wait for Sandeen to announce the results we all speculated on the validity of her announcing a positive. How many here can honestly say they would have believed a positive test result even if she had posted it verbatim? .. answer none. What works one way will work the other, the tests if they become available will be shot down as meaningless and life will go on.

        So yes, I am pessimistic that anything will change… ever! In the end the politics of the money will prevail, and far too many people have their hands in the pot and could care less who they splash.

  4. joanne says:

    I am not so pessimistic. Its merely a matter of time before MRT or PET can demonstrate the neural function of the CT brain.

    Researchers would get there much faster were they to drop the practice of interpreting each new finding as a gender issue.

    But this research shows us they are getting there.

    In the end they will only demonstrate what we have been telling them all along πŸ™‚

  5. Angel says:

    OMG… this makes perfect sense!

  6. Sara says:

    Neither am I pessimistic. I fully believe that the current research focus on the Y chromosome and it’s idiosyncratic architecture will shed some very clear light on transexuality. Personally, I believe we are in for some surprises there, however, I also fully expect the classic transexual condition to be well described in the genome in the not-too distant future. The Y chromosome is very unique, and up until recently it has not been the focus of intense scientific scrutiny. That is changing, and in my personal opinion that bodes well for finally supporting the transexual condition from that perspective.

    May I recommend the book “Genome”, by Matt Ridley (http://www.amazon.com/Genome-Matt-Ridley/dp/0060932902)? In it the author takes one on a journey of the human genome by picking one gene on each of the 23 chromosomes and giving the reader a historical and layman’s view of it’s structure and function. Each individual story is fascinating in and of itself, and in the end one has a much better understanding of both the beauty and complexity of the human genome but the overarching human condition which it is responsible for.

    Sara …

  7. leighspov says:

    Great! If your right I will be happy, if not I will be correct .. either way I will be happy πŸ™‚

  8. justjenniferblog says:

    This is a very interesting idea. I have read about phantom limb syndrome, and I have read about its relation to transsexualism and how it seems to occur in some but who are post-op and not others. I must say, this idea makes perfect sense. However, I see one major flaw in developing this concept. I would not at all be surprised if some post-op non-transsexuals lied and claimed to not have said sensation, either to hide the fact they they clearly should not have had surgery, or even in an attempt to sabotage any research that would destroy their own ideas. I know I have seen some obvious lies from such people.

    Oh, and there is claimed to be a similar sensation that exists in some FTMs who actually feel the presence of a penis that they have never had.

    • Aria Blue says:

      That’s why there is more to the selection process in good studies than self-reporting. Once the studies are done however, all the conjecture and psychobabble is in the past.

      The diagnosis is made by presence or absence of this reaction or non-reaction, not by anything anyone says. You lack the penile response in the appropriate brain area, and you are transsexual. If not, then you aren’t. There is no more to the diagnosis than that. Surgery is predicated on the brain-genital imbalance, not on trans-theory or “desired gender presentation”, transition plans, or anything else. It’s merely a test to resolve a physical problem.

      • joanne says:

        As long as the situation remains in the hands of psychotherapists, sexologists and other assorted fruit-loops there will be problems.

        Organizations like the WPATH wankers and the APA (usually comprised of the same few “experts”) are utterly free to draw whatever fanciful conclusions they like from whatever they are told by whoever they see.

        Their main claim to control over it is the argument that it can only be ‘diagnosed’ through the so-called talking therapies.

        The fact that what they end up diagnosing is nothing like the situation we experience is lost on them because anyone who wants to can learn the CT narrative and recite it.

        That of course is what they do…

        “…clinically, one may see applicants who are employed, have relationships, and function socially without any problems, yet very strongly desire sex reassignment. They state that they do suffer from the incongruence between their anatomic sex and gender identity, but that it does not interfere with their lives to the point that they are not able to function satisfactorily.

        This implies that impairment is not necessarily associated with gender dysphoria, although older applicants may have experienced
        periods in their lives in which they did not function well.”

        The DSM Diagnostic Criteria for Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents and Adults.

        Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis β€’ Friedemann Pfafflin.
        American Psychiatric Association 2009.
        Arch Sex Behav.

        The claims of the so-called applicants cited above cannot be tested. Yet those of us who have lived with the incongruity and betrayal, screaming of the violation between our bodies and our minds, know full well that trying to ‘live’ with it is the garden path to madness.

        Who among the psychotherapists, sexologists and TG activists want a definitive test? It will be resisted. The very day it comes the WPATH wankers and the APA diagnostics will be shown for the Quackery and snake oil smoke- and-mirror solutions that they are.

        The TG’s won’t be able to milk our birth affliction for their own advantage.

        Good luck to all of them. They deserve each other!

  9. saphirenz says:

    How can one such as I disagree with that well written article and the profound responses so far? I do however adhere in my way to the dichotomy of sex for I am just a female who required corrective treatment and surgery . There may well be a third sex and if there is I am certainly not of its kind.

    Neither am I pessimistic. In fact, quite the opposite for I am confident that all will be revealed by dilligent and honest research. ( I have willed my brain for such research purposes.) Indeed, haven’t I (/we) always known this blip in my (/our) development was physiological?…. and as for that inappropriate organ how hateful it was …they look much better on a man …and to be perfectly honest it is as if I never had it anyway. Perhaps, as has been suggested here already. the loathing of inappropriate genitalia could become an acceptable paradigm and indication of classical transsexualism.

  10. catkisser says:

    I have recently been discussing the apparent very high co-morbidity of anti social psychopathologies and AG-TG apparent individuals with my psychiatrist friend. Many of these individuals openly admit to such diagnosis.

    I also am reminded that around 12 or so years ago I proposed that a series of tests for transsexuality were already possible, and that was long before many other studies gave me ideas for some rather simple ones. The howls of protest from almost everyone in the trans communities shocked me to the core back then. Now I understand that the majority, on some level, are well aware they are full of it and deathly afraid of a test that would reveal that.

    One simple test could literally be a scratch and sniff test based on the differences in smell perceptions between male and female central nervous systems. You could market it over the counter!

    • zoebrain says:

      Yes, that does seem to be the case.

      I still say that there are differences in degree, that neurological sex is multidimensional and continuous, not binary…. just as is somatic sex generally.

      But one aspect of treatment *is* binary, it forces us to draw a line in a fuzzy area. And that line is genital reconstruction.

      All of what this article, and the comments say, is true in a biological sense. If one is to *define* transsexuality as *requiring the correct genitalia* in cases of a generalised neurological mismatch, then I could live with that as a practical definition. I just think there’s a lot more to it than that.

      It’s because there’s a lot more to it, that simple tests of hearing and smell should be very good diagnostic tools, and a battery of such tests definitive.

      • joanne says:

        Ah! Me!

        Zoe B. These two comments are truly priceless. Honestly – the package is completely new: its beautifully wrapped. πŸ™‚

        The contents are unsurprisingly familiar: inside the wrapping the politics of transgenderism infuse both comments.

        “…neurological sex is multidimensional and continuous, not binary…. just as is somatic sex generally.”

        The problem is that almost everybody falls into one or other category of anatomical sex – regardless of their individual morphology.

        The same argument can be applied to social gender roles – which (by your own admission)are almost wholly learned.

        Diamond’s biased interaction theory is an interesting kite. But it was an attempt to explain why young children come to identify with a given gender status. (Gender Identity.) Yawn…

        It never came close to dealing with the somatic dissonance. But that is hardly surprising. Sexologists (Diamond among them) had written that experience out of the equation by the 1980’s.

        That was very convenient for them. It meant their theories appeared to be correct. It was not very convenient for CT’s because, regardless of the final result, they were and are being misdiagnosed.

        So, regardless of the politics of genderism and regardless of whether there is more to that, or not, a diagnosis that does not conflate CT’ism with transgenderal behavior is still necessary.

        You would not, I hope suggest that gender politics should get in the way of developing that?

  11. zoebrain says:

    Here’s what I wrote recently to Dr Michael L Brown, who appeared as Advocatus Diaboli on the Tyra Banks show recently (and got treated most unfairly IMHO even though he spouted such ill-informed nonsense)

    One thing we may be able to do regarding diagnosis in future – senses of smell and hearing are sexually dimorphic. We should be able to come up with a diagnostic protocol for childhood transsexuality based on those. What we don’t know is the mis-diagnosis rate.

    fMRI scans could also be useful, bit we’d need a lot of experimentation to decide what happens there. Pediatric lymbic nuclei are different from adult ones. e.g. the sexually dimorphic differences in the BSTc layer of the hypothalamus differentiate at puberty, not before. These differences are reliably symptomatic of sex identity, but definitely NOT causal.

    Diamond’s Biased Interaction theory states that there are biasses, aspects of personality that are different (in sex as opposed to culturally-variable gender) between boys and girls, and that sex identity (what is called gender identity usually) crystallises from that. BUT… he doesn’t say what these biases are.

    It appears to me that they *have* to be neurological, and therefore amenable to objective testing. Hearing, smell, emotional response, there must be a whole slew of them. That is, if we’re correct. If no such sexually dimorphic differences are found in TS kids, such as eye contact when young, then that would weaken our theory severely. It would imply a far greater role for post-natal environment than I believe is the case.

    But until we can differentiate between “gendered behaviour” that is actually “sexed behaviour”, a consequence of neuro-anatomy, and truly “gendered behaviour” that is a cultural construct weakly influenced by and resultant from “sexed behaviour” , we’re whistling in the dark.

  12. Aria Blue says:

    All of which is irrelevant to what I am saying. The question is: “Does this person need genital surgery?”. It is not “Does this person need to ‘transition’ to be a man or woman?”.

    The answer is found by looking at this particular area and seeing if there is a conflict between the brain and the genitals. All the rest is added fluff and has nothing to do with the physiological transsexual condition.

    This is also not to say that those who need to transition under a psychological model should be prevented from doing so, up to and including surgery if the professionals decide that is appropriate. The point is to fast track people born with transsexualism to a cure, and not to do anything to/about people with transgender-type symptoms. If the supporters of the transgender paradigm try to hold this research back or spin it to insignificance, it wouldn’t surprise anyone though would it? They did that with Cat’s take on the science vis a vis the ADA too.

    The problem is focused on the genitals, because it is genital surgery we are talking about. There is no fuzzy area; you either get the surgery or you don’t. The test being proposed is designed with the idea in mind that you are relieving one specific problem- the genital mismatch with the brain. It is medical only, not social.

    Anything else a person wants to do with their life is up to them, be it “transition” or what have you. That’s how it is in reality anyway, despite people’s insistance that they need the excuse of being “diagnosed transgender” to make these changes to their lives. We are responsible for making our own choices and must bear the consequences. That is never going to change. I personally don’t give a crap what people do, as long as they are honest about why they are doing it and it doesn’t harm others in this area, specifically those of us who were born with this syndrome.

    I am being particularly repetitive because I see the issue being clouded again, and people don’t seem to quite grasp what I am saying, once again turning it to questions of sexual identity and gendered behavior.

    This is one medical test for one single problem. Just like any other. It has nothing to do with “identity” or trying to figure out who people “really are”. It needs to be separated from gender babble forever, and given the responses in this thread this will take awhile to even get people to begin to see the light on this subject. That’s ok, we’ve got plenty of time to undo the transgender politicking after it fizzles out.

  13. saphirenz says:

    You said “All of which is irrelevant to what I am saying. The question is : “Does this person need genital surgery?”

    Uhuh, Fair comment and well brought back on topic…although it did give us all a chance to air our particular and, never the less, various viewpoints. The question remains and I think it a remarkably good one

  14. saphirenz says:

    The original question stirred up a veritable hornets nest of response. You revived my spirit and optimism reigned…..for a while . Rhetoric abounded and surely something positive will come from it …I guess there is still a chance of that, even after the air clears a little. Anyway.. your suggestion is pausible and did provoke lively debate. Should we be able to harness the enrgy displayed and the commitment what a formidable force we could be

  15. lisalee18wheeler says:

    I’m surprised the usual suspects haven’t shown up yet. This topic is probably a little too high-brow for them…

  16. kathrynliz says:

    Interesting comments, and I see some familiar names here….. The “usual suspects” are indeed absent so far, but I am not holding my breath.
    I think that one’s level of optimism on this issue is very much related to where one lives. I am in accord with my friend Saphire on this one…there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it is a long tunnel.
    From back in the days of Semmelweis, the medical profession has always been slow to throw out old theories and adopt new ones; often in the face of overwhelming physical evidence of the invalidity of the “establishment” position.
    Patience and peristance will win out in the end.
    I know we want reforms NOW…of course we do, but we are a tiny minority in society, and it will take time.
    Inteeresting comments on the “phantom limb” issue….you are right….after surgery, everything just felt as it ought to…I can’t remember any persistent phantom feelings of this sort…..
    It was especially interesting to hear of the differences between the genital surgery and the lost finger tip of one member. Quite definitive…..

  17. annierose55 says:

    I agree that TS and TV are two distinctly different conditions. To be totally honest, I have to say that I do not personally know any real “classic/true transsexuals”. I met Jamison Greene once, and I am most certain that he would fit the definition. Interestingly enough though, I did not consider him a TS. He was just a very charming, articulate, intelligent man.

    By the same token, I do not consider myself “trans” anything. I have been a woman for so long that I cannot even remember myself in any other form. Have I ever experienced ‘phantom limb syndrome’? Gawd no! lol.

    Now, on the other hand, I have met several TG’s and a couple of TV’s. Just recently I was introduced to a transgender woman by a mutual friend. Neither of them had any idea of my history. I was able to ask questions that were candidly answered. Having been assured that this person had undergone SRS many years previous, I was still struck by the obvious ‘maleness’ of this person. Not just her voice and speech patterns seemed male but her overall appearance and demeanor were just not right. What truly shocked me, was ‘her’ statement that she “DIDN’T HAVE TO TRANSITION”!!! She just did it because “she figured it would be nice to find out what it was really like to be a woman”. (%^&**&^%^&*???!?!??!).

    On another occasion I accompanied a friend who seems totally convinced that she is “DEFINATELY a CT, to a TG support group. The moderator of that group is what I would describe as a “professional transgender”. This individual ‘transitioned’ on a State job five years ago, lives with his wife, speaks and sounds like a man and wears a dress to her job everyday. She is also politically active, educating politicians, bureaucrats and health care professionals on the transgender/transsexual experience. In a private conversation she confided to me that should her/his wife insist that she/he not proceed with SRS, then she would accede to those desires and “DEAL WITH IT”.
    How can this person be allowed to speak for or even dream of representing me. And yet sadly, tragically she does. That is why I go to these support groups. To counter the nonsense, the madness, the auto-constructed fantasies,

    When I compare those two narratives to my own personal mindset when I first learned that an actual sex change was possible, I am reminded of my first exposure to the TG mindset. When I was incredibly young and naive, I too was able to find my way to a TG support group. What I found 40+ years ago is what I experienced a few weeks ago when I went with my friend: a group of men in dresses wearing wigs and trying to pretend to be women. Their attempts to cope, or express their ‘feminine side’ were so pathetic that I determined then and there that there HAD to be another way. There was no way that I had anything in common. There was no way that in five, ten, fifty years I would ever, ever find myself in their shoes.

    • cassandraspeaks says:

      All I can say Annie is “Been there done that myself” though my visit to a support group was a mere 25 years ago.

      What you describe is precisely what we are talking about trying to curtail. The TG “world view” is the only one the media, the government, institutions, medical professionals ever get to witness. Because for reasons of our own we have chosen to keep our narratives to ourselves. We do not brag or proslethise about what we have done because the motive for our choice was to never HAVE to talk about it again. I believe it is this kind of fundemental difference that has allowed our existance to be obliterated.
      We have started to roll back the covers and to make our presence felt and that will continue. We will speak out and we will speak truth and we will dispell the myths that have been allowed to grow in our absence.

      More of us must speak out, speak clearly and with firmness and purpose and speak without hate even though we will often be accused of hate we must not back down. Not this time. This time we will make our voices our female voices heard. The men too who share our narrative you are most welcome know that.

  18. saphirenz says:

    annierose,That was quite incredible. I could have written that tract myself. Surely we didn’t go to the same group and meet the same people…did we? Probably not,for what you describe is, I believe the archetypical self appointed, self agrandizing,would be spokesperson for the whole TG and GLB movemnt….or so they think

  19. catkisser says:

    Those of us who had contact with those groups have almost exactly the same stories to tell.

    I actually was pushed into running one of the groups within a few months of “joining” one. There was nothing for me there, no support. While I was “president”, (less than a year because the “the bitch has hers and says screw us started up quickly) the number of spouses tripled…..because they could talk to me honestly and openly. I was driving 75 miles to occasionally attend a transsexual specific group then because of the affirmation of having a spouse turn to me and ask “which one of them is yours?”

    • lisalee18wheeler says:

      …β€œthe bitch has hers”…

      Like this is a badge of honor. *rolls eyes* Oh please…

      Like I ~really~ wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars. That kind of thinking is just plain stupid and selfish.

      • catkisser says:

        and you have really touched on something here Lisa. I’m a lifelong feminist and viewed my being female the cards I was dealt with no illusions that it was some position of superiority in a world that still pays men on average 25% more than women for the exact same work…… This, more than anything exposes the fetishistic underpinning of most TGs, this open mysogyny expressed in the “safe” form of being woman of history specific but with all the standard gynophobic trappings.

        They hate us, that’s why they never stop saying we are the ones that hate.

  20. saphirenz says:

    “Been there done that” …how often do those words cross our minds in places like this? Incidentally a place in which I feel so comfortable and at home. Thanks to you all for your company…(smile).

    We do seem to have wandered from the original topic of aria’s “Definitive test” post but I suppose we can be forgiven for that since we are all talking sensibly and without too much ire. Unlike some of the email lists scattered around the WWW under the titles of HBS….not that they are necessarily a bad thing for thay become a gateway to places like this for people like me. The big difference , I think , is that in places like this anger does not rule and resolution is genuinely sought. The angry stamping of feet , villification etc., seen so much on email lists is a wasted emotion and begs the question “Well, what are we going to do about it ?”

    So let negative emotion and aimless rhetoric fade into insignificance. United we must surely be formidable so let us resolve to speak as one. …but lets get it straight to begin with what exactly it is we want to say. Certainly for my part I have no intention of subscribing to the witholding of treatment for those TG who may well benefit from therapy and surgey (They are unlikely to be the offenders anyway).

    I once emailed the World Health Org., to no avail ….but just supposing we all did that ??? well, enough surely is enough.

  21. saphirenz says:

    Oh , I forgot to mention the fact that some here take advantage of using “the Fourth Estate” to get the message across . what allies the media could be huh?

  22. Kathryn says:

    I have noticed that the “socialisation” factor is one that is often trotted out by many on other sites as a way of blurring the TG/TS boundaries.
    Now, I’m an “oldie”….Born in 1942, I grew up in very binary-centred post war Britain, where being “different” in any way was not only frowned upon, but was mostly illegal! So I had a lot of reasons to try to “socialise” myself into the male role that society insisted on.
    In spite of that, I knew at about 6 years old (near as I can remember) that I was really a little girl. The thought processes of males have always puzzled and sometimes disgusted me. I could never get my head around why they thought as they seem to, while females seemed to make so much more sense. Now that I am happily transitioned, and am accepted fully by my women-friends as one of them, I can see the difference in thought processes in a more reasonable light, but they are still very evident.
    Men and women think quite differently about just about everything, and the continuous emphasis on the “socialisation factor” in “gender” by the TG-inclined is an obvious sign of who they are….. men.

    If a man wants to dress as a woman, even “full time”, then I am the last to gainsay that…. but he’s still a man, and his strident claims to be something else only proves the point beyond doubt.
    I suppose the extreme manifestation of this syndrome would be autogynephilia (if there is such a thing), but that’s just a matter of degree, not kind.
    If there is not long-standing rejection of embodiment (particularly vis a vis genitals) then whatever ails you, it isn’t transsexualism. Puberty was purgatory for me….my body’s ultimate betrayal of who I am. Even now, in my late 60’s, I can remember how I felt……

    What we do with “full time” AG’s is tricky…..some have no doubt had the surgery (It’s easy to learn the “story” to tell the psychs)….
    Where do they fit into our societal paradigms? The same questions can be asked about the many physical intersex conditions, because not infrequently the arbitrary decisions made about their “gender” early in life are incorrect. Then there are those that are truly not male or female, but something in between. They, too, deserve their place in society, and in our societal systems, their very small numbers notwithstanding.

    Our issues as TS/HBS folk are very clear cut. We fit the binary model very well (mostly), but there is a small number of folk that don’t, and these are used as something of a “stalking horse” by the TG elements in their attempts to justify their behavioural choices/quirks.
    As I said on another thread, in the sort of society in which we live (otensibly “democratic”) all we can do is to keep the true state of affairs in front of those that make the laws and regulations. Truth is truth, and must eventually prevail, although I fear it could take quite some time in some places.

    The artificial construct of “human rights” often leads to “human wrongs” in many facets of society, and our issue is just one of them, where the TG lobby uses their concept of “rights” to undermine our position….. very much a case of “do unto others before they do it unto you” I think……Rather typically male behaviour n’est ce pas?

  23. annierose55 says:

    I think you are making some excellent points here. Agreeing that there are definite, measurable differences, the question becomes how to treat all those wanna-be Ts’s. Having been effectively removed from the DSM madness, we can now sympathetically address the issues of the various assorted varieties of the TG/GV/GQ/TV.

    What astounds me is WHY the TG would want to align themselves with the GLB. Truth be told they are simply, demonstrably, no more than political fodder in the GLB agenda. That they would try to claim the legitimacy of the TS’s medical model is not surprising but lacking in the hard science necessary to justify that alignment, they are forced to try to bully their way in.

    Still the question remains, what to do. I would suggest that encouraging the TG’s to find their own paradigm, the own raison d’etre.

    • meeercyme says:

      It is very common for crossdressers to visit gay bars. They feel safe there. That is probably where the GLBT emanated.

      I would be afraid to talk about what they call wannabes. There are most likely more autogynephiles amongst the “post-ops” than we can imagine. My guess would be that 9 out of 10 post-ops lied to get where they are.

      I have met several women that you would swear were genetic female, as beautiful as can be…women who began transition in their teens. But, when I discovered that they were interested in the TG agenda, or that they have YouTube websites filled with fetishistic transvestism, or that they have a special affinity for other beautiful TS’s, then I begin to wonder what they really are.

      I am only speaking of my experiences. In real life I would feel much more comfortable hanging out with a genetic woman friend who cheats on her husband, gambles too much, and drinks like a fish, than to link up with a TS who isn’t even sure if she made a mistake trying to pretend that she was a female.

      After 10 years of being postop, and dealing with the crap I’ve run across, I feel much more at ease living in the normal world, amongst people with normal problems, and not problems created by those who can’t get their heads out of that TG lifestyle.

  24. leighspov says:

    “Having been effectively removed from the DSM madness, we can now sympathetically address the issues of the various assorted varieties of the TG/GV/GQ/TV.”

    Anni ..

    Have you any idea how condescending that sounds?